- This topic has 56 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
How much matzah do you eat for the mitzvah? Does anyone use the actual volume of an olive?
For the mitzva, you need to eat a k’zayis–that is all. Just the volume of one zayis. A regular zayis.
So go out, pick a watermelon, and eat that much volume in matza.
We have a paper that shows the size of a k’zayis.
Does a k’zayis count the seed, or not?
A K’zayis is NOT the measurement of todays olive. (nor watermelon, there are different Shiurim for that, and it Does include the seed of an olive of old times (they only started the pimento thing lately)
Popa
Chazon ish holds it has to be the size of a pumpkin.
Rav Schachter quotes the Avnei Neizer that we know how big an olive is. An olive is the average olive (not like the Tzlach), and this is certainly an opinion that a Zaken or Choleh can rely on. Opinions range anywhere from 11 to 28 (maybe even 33) grams. If you are going to eat 28 grams, though, make sure you eat at least 11 grams within 2 minutes.
Sam, two pounds of matzoh?
DY: Thanks. I slipped up measurements in my mind. All ounces in that last post have been changed to grams. It’s about .5 to 1 oz.
I do not believe the two minute limit is absolute. If a person is eating at a leisurely pace without interrupting to do something else, then whatever time it takes to eat the kezayit is ok.
old man
Why do you believe that?
Do you have a source?
A svoro is nice when learning the sugya but without a halachic source one could ‘believe’ that sour milk can be used for marror as well.
Sam2 Kezais is a unit of volume, not weight. There is actually a Iggeres of the Chazon Ish wherein he says that the kezais is the size of the normal olive in any place and at any time. Given the size of the medium big olive in EY, and erring way to side of caution, there are shittos that put the measurement at 20 ml, or the outside volume of two soda bottle caps, or that of a small matchbox. The Rogochover Gaon, when asked, demonstrated the size with the top digit of his index finger. We have no reason to assume he was built like Og m.h.
sam2- the steipler in a letter in back of hilchos chag bchag writes that a choleh can be somech on the avvnei nezer.
old man- The Chazon ish at the end of kuntreis hashiurim is very clear that the shiur kdei achilas pras is a set time and is not dependent on the food you are eating. His main raya is from eiruvin 4a ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??????. However the minchas chinuch in hilchos erev yom kippur brings up a tzad that it goes by each food.
Sam, thanks for making sure not to make my post look foolish. Also for the correction; Pesach was about to become even more expensive. 😉
Old man, very creative. A load of hogwash, but very creative.
Old man
Some people don’t believe in Judaism at all period. There’s Halacha so no need to state your beliefs.
The “Kazies” gets bigger and bigger every year. Those sheets they give out are the maximum possible size
You can eat alot less and still be Yotzei
Old man: 2 minutes is because I hold of a small K’zayis. It’s pretty impossible to eat 11 grams at a leisurely pace in over 2 minutes. The bigger the K’zayis you hold of the longer you have. What you say is true. K’dei Achilas Pras is defined as eating something much larger than a K’zayis at a normal pace. So yes, if you eat at a leisurely pace you will be Yotzei. But there technically is a set time.
The “Kazies” gets bigger and bigger every year. Those sheets they give out are the maximum possible sizes
You’re talking about the shiur poster from the Oorah “Here Comes Pesach Blues” video, right?
every kid brings home these cardboard measuring things, thats what I am talking about
I dont know about any video from Oorah
The sheets aren’t accurate because every company matza is a different thickness. The cover of the matza box should really have the measure on it…
“every kid brings home these cardboard measuring things,”
My Children have never brought home any such cardboard measuring thingy in the over 45 cumulative years of yeshiva and beis yaakov attendance.
I have no idea what you are referring to.
AndI doubt anyone realistically uses a three year olds arts and craft project to make sure they are keeping a mitzva properyrly
“Sam2 Kezais is a unit of volume, not weight.”
There are different views about that. Many Sefardic Poskim, like Rav Ovadya, go by weight.
The actual shiur is a volume shiur, but matzah can be calculated by weight.
Dear Sam2,
Thank you. I agree that a small kezayis and two minutes go quite well. It’s obvious that one cannot reasonably hold the maximum shiur and the minimum time. The average yeshiva bochur ( see comments above) thinks that the halachah applies only to strong able-bodied yeshiva boys. But it also applies to twelve year old petite girls, who cannot wolf down large quantities of any food at Olympic speeds.
I have my own way of doing it. I am machmir in time, two minutes. Whatever I can eat in that span at a reasonable pace must be a kezayis. Although I hold a minimum kezayis shiur for my family, I am always surprised how much I ate. It is quite alot, far greater than the most machmir shiur.Machine mtzah goes down much quicker than hand. I eat both.
Not to be misunderstood, I am against using stop watches, meausring apparati and the well known obsessiveness that goes with this mitzvah. What I do for myself is my own busines. I think that if one just eats matzah for a few minutes without worrying, the mitzvah has been performed more than adequately.
old man- the size of the kzayis sets the time not the time sets the kzayis.
Keep in mind a kezayis is the minimum shiur required. (the size of an olive not more)Ie the absolute minimum amount to be considred eating is a kezayis.
Do you build a sukkah 7 x7 tefachim and 10 tefachim tall? Do you measure out enough oil so menorah will only last a half hr? why settle for the absolute minimum amount of matzah needed to be yotzeh?
why settle for the absolute minimum amount of matzah needed to be yotzeh?
Because eating too much can make people sick. Especially eating large amounts in short periods of time
Zahavasdad, I think you are doing the mitzva wrong.
The absolute bare minimum to be called achila is a kezayis eaten over the course of a kedei achilas pras. Ie the volume of an olive eaten over the normal time it takes to eat half a loaf of bread. By definition if this is hard to handle, their is something wrong with the “achila” and you are doing the mitzva wrong
Do you measure out enough oil so menorah will only last a half hr? why settle for the absolute minimum amount of matzah needed to be yotzeh?
Yah! Do you only put 4 Parshios in your Leather bombs? Don’t you hold an oak tree and a starfruit with your citron? And I have 5 meals on shabbos, and 2 chulents.
I don’t fit in 10 Tefachim, and the menorah looks cool.
Zhavasdad
When it comes to mitzvos all of a sudden certain people are concerned about “getting sick” I’m sure you never overeat, eat too quickly or eat fattening or very rich foods that can possibly get you sick. I never heard of anyone getting sick from eating a kezayis matzah. You quickly chew it up and swallow it. 2 minutes is plenty of time. Especially if you are quite hungry as most people are when they get to Motzi Matzah.
Oh btw a kezayis is a little more than a 1/4 of a hand matzah. Unless you are really young or really old or ill you should have no issue chewing it and swallowing it in 2 minutes. If you really have a problem you should aim for under 3 minutes. If even that is difficult there are poskim that say you have up to 4 minutes but ideally one should do it in 2. The reason for all the stringencies is because its a Torah mitzvoh not a derabannan.
Bar shatya, thanks for strengthening my point do you buy tefilin with which you are yotze (you can get for about $400) or do you spend extra to be mehader the mitzva? Do you buy a “kosher” set of daled minim or do you strive for the nicest one within your budget?
Your nonsense about more parshiyos in tfilin or minim with your esrog is of course am haaratzos, are you suggesting that eating more than an olive’s volume of matza is bal tosif?
“Does anyone use the actual volume of an olive?”
I do.
Ubiquitin: Are you suggesting that there is more Hiddur in the Mitzvah to eat more than a K’zayis? Why would you think that?
Sam2, kezayis is the bare minimum to be considered achila it is not the goal to strive for.
In other words there is a mitzva to eat matzah. period. We want to do ratzon Hashem so we eat matzah. How much is considered eating? So on that chazal tell us the bare minimum to be considered having eaten is a kezayis.
(I realize Imgetting repetetive thpugh its hard to convey in text)
Ubiquitin: Right. Hashem told us to eat. He also told us how much to eat. So that is how much we should eat. I’m not sure why you’re assuming there’s more of a Kiyum than with the K’zayis. We eat 5 K’zaysim anyway (though the Korech one doesn’t count).
Im not saying there is neccesaraly a mitzva to eat more. I’m saying that we don’t generally measure mitzvos to be yotze the bare minimum and call it a day. We don’t just put Tefilin on and remove them I can’t think of one myitzva let alone a deoraisa let alone one that cones once a year that we put such an emphasis and struggle to try to fullfill and be satisfied with the bare minimum
A kezayis is the bare minimum that is called achila it is not the goal that those on a high level strive to attain. Same for eating within a kedei achilas pras. If we are struggling to finish a “kezayis” in 2 minutes and calling that the absolute bare minimum to be considered having eaten, then we are doing something wrong.
(these may in fact be 2 different points)
Ubiquitin: I’m not sure what you’re saying. If it was difficult to find a Lulav that was 4 Tefachim long then we would have measuring sticks to make sure we’re Yotzei. We want to be Yotzei so we find out how much we have to eat. For many people, eating too much Matzah isn’t good for them (they’ll gain wait or will have stomach issues) so they try to eat less than a lot. And our estimates are almost always on the high end anyway. Have you ever seen an olive? They’re really not big at all. They are quite small.
” Have you ever seen an olive? They’re really not big at all. They are quite small”
That is part of my point. An olive is tiny! So small in fact that any less isn’t even called eating (both in terms of mitzvos and issurim). If a person is having difficulty it us obvious that he is doing the mitzva wrong
Ubiquitin, I don’t get your point either. Are you saying:
A) There’s an inyan to eat more than the minimum shiur
B) Since there are different opinions regarding how much matzah is considered a k’zayis, it’s best to eat enough to be sure.
I agree with B, and disagree with A.
DY I’m not saying either of those. I’m saying 2 other things:
I guess what I’m saying is for a regular person if you are struggling with the mitzva if al achilas matzah, then by definition you are doing it wrong.
And don’t worry about measuring eat matzah Luke a normal person in a normal tune period and again by definition you are yotzeh. An olive is the smallest amount
Some people have issues with their stomach, they might have GERD , They might have Gluten issues
Some people have swallowing issues , Some might have swallowing and digestive issues and have to eat slower and eat the Matza while drinking water to wash it down better.
People have had the Lap Band surgery have to watch how much they eat
Eating and digestive issues are quite commonm
Ahh, the narishkeit over shiurim never leaves us, year after year.
The problem is that this has the potential to embarrass us. When you argue that the volume of an olive changes year after year, people think we’re nothing more than silly frummies.
DY I’m not saying either of those. I’m saying 2 other things:
I guess what I’m saying is for a regular person if you are struggling with the mitzva if al achilas matzah, then by definition you are doing it wrong.
And don’t worry about measuring eat matzah Luke a normal person in a normal tune period and again by definition you are yotzeh. An olive is the smallest amount
Shiurim change year after year? Where does this naarishkeit come from? I intend ti eat the same amount that I have for many years.
Ubiquitin, I still don’t understand, but you might be making the same error as many others, that by definition, eating a k’zayis within k’dei achilas pras must be easy. What seems to be ignored is that our modern day matzah is much harder, and more difficult to chew and swallow, than bread, and the shiur of k’dei achilas pras is measured in bread.
ZD, those who have a hard time may indeed rely on the more lenient opinions, but you’re wrong for extending that to everyone.
DY: SHU”T Chassam Sofer YD 1:127 (maybe OC, not 100% positive) implies that it can and does change, though that change would be close to negligible.
DY, that is what I’m saying. Why on earth would you measure the time frame based on bread?
I’m curious if that makes sense to you
Put another way, The mitzvah is “achilas matzah” eating matzah it has to be a normal derech achila for example if you eat it as achilas gasah that is not normal and you are not yotzeh. If you are stuffing your face with 2/3 of a matzah in 2 minutes that is obviously not derech achilah and not what the mitzvah is.
Rambam chametz umatza 6, haloacha alef: Umisheachal kezayit yatza.
What you do after you are yotze? Why delay the next mitzva with stam eating?
and to the original subject, nowhere does the Rambam specify the size of the kezayit he cites, because it was obviously the size of the matzui olive. not needing further elucidation.
Even if it were different for matzah (I need to look that up), Matzos used to be thicker and softer.
Twisted, please, don’t throw the Nodah Bi’Yehudah and Mishnah Berurah, as well as the Chazon Ish under the bus.
Many posters here are ignoring the fact the larger shiur is based on major poskim who knew every source and sevara that any of us can think of.
If your rav tells you that you can be meikil, fine, but don’t disparage the very great people who had a more machmir approach, by implying that their shittos are c”v based on ignorance.
DY: The Chazon Ish didn’t actually say the bigger Shiur L’maaseh. He just explained the Shittah of the Tzlach and made it famous, so it gets put under his name. He ends the whole thing saying it’s not L’ma’aseh and that everyone knows how big an olive is (or something like that).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.