My Voice Will Not Be Heard Any More…

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  • #593878

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I had a very disconcerting experience last night (Friday night) at davening.

    I was standing next to a fellow who was davening… quite loudly. While that, in and of itself, is not so bad, there were several mitigating factors that made it worse:

    a. He loudly “sing-songed” his davening.

    b. He was two or three paragraphs behind the rest of the tzibur — so not only was singing loudly, he was doing so in a different chapter of Tehillim.

    As a result, I found that in many cases, I could not hear the chazzan. And I found myself getting angry and upset about the matter.

    But then, I realized, that I, too, might not be perfect in this area. While I’m pretty sure that I don’t speak loudly enough to disturb other people as this gentleman did, I could not honestly say that I *never* disturbed anyone during davening.

    So, my “New Year’s Resolution*” is this: From now on (bli neder), I will strive to make sure that my voice is not heard during davening, with the following exceptions:

    1. When I am the shliach tzibur (obviously)

    2. When reciting a passage where the custom is that the congregation recites it loud and in unison (y’hei shmaih rabbah, kadosh kadosh kadosh, etc.). Even then, that is only when I am saying it at the proper time and with the congregation.

    3. During communal singing (i.e. if the entire congregation is singing l’cha dodi, I will allow myself to join in — provided, of course, I am singing the same tune/verse as the tzibur).

    Other than that, I will strive to make sure that all my tefillos are silent** to the best of my ability. I know that I have no desire to make any one else’s davening as miserable as he made mine last night.

    The Wolf

    * Don’t argue over whether it’s acceptable for a Jew to make a New Year’s Resolution on Jan 1. I don’t actually make New Year’s resolutions.

    ** Subject to the limitation that I need to hear myself davening. But I will do my best to make it as inaudible to others as possible.

    #724193

    scared me there! with that title i thought you were leaving the coffee room! but when i saw it was from you, i was hoping i was wrong cuz i enjoy reading ur posts

    #724194

    eclipse
    Member

    It’s funny that in the CR one always has to put a bunch of clarifying details cuz you “hear” the argumentative posts in your mind!

    #724195

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Make sure you sing on tune, too.

    #724196

    Midwest2
    Participant

    How about shuckling? Some people (frequently but not always younger) bob back and forth and up and down as if they were auditioning for a Broadway dance chorus. I always thought you were supposed to stand quietly, feet together like one of Yechezkel Hanavi’s malachim, and concentrate, not twirl around so energetically that you knock the poor guy next to you into his shtender.

    #724197

    real-brisker
    Member

    I think everyone should be this way!

    #724198

    metrodriver
    Member

    Wolf; Like P’sachLib. I got scared for a split second that you’re (ch”v) leaving the Coffee Room. Other than that, I agree with your point 100%. It was good, though, that your experience with that fellow davener brought out the point clearly how disturbing it is when one raises their voice and they’re out of tune or out of place with the rest of the congregation. As far as the timing of your resolution. (Kabbolah). Whenever you get the inspiration (His’orr’us) is the right time.

    #724199

    cofeefan
    Member

    very good point… i know get confused when someone davens out loud because that might not be what i am up to!

    i want to add that one’s voice should not be heard when others are davening especially in a “chit chatty way” meaning talking during tefila!!!

    #724200

    TheGoq
    Participant

    you would dare to deprive the world of your precious voice? you don’t have to belt it out like an opera singer but u should enjoy davening, just try to keep the decibel level down so others can have proper kavana

    #724201

    not I
    Member

    That is something that always grates on my nerves!

    Perhaps due to the fact that he was behind he was saying it loud so he wouldn’t get confused..

    No thanks!

    #724202

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    you would dare to deprive the world of your precious voice?

    You bet I would dare.

    The Wolf

    #724203

    Wolf trying to fill in for WIY?

    He already touhed on the subject at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/some-important-halachos-of-tefillah-and-pronunciation

    #724204

    Nonsense
    Member

    ????? ????? – ???? ??

    #724205

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    ????? ????? – ???? ??

    I’m not sure I understand your point. Please elaborate.

    Are you saying that I was wrong to be upset with the other person? Are you saying that I’m wrong for intending to keep quiet (except for the situations I outlined)? Or are you saying something else entirely?

    Please elaborate.

    Thank you.

    The Wolf

    #724206

    As a Baal Kria you know very well what taht Passuk refers to, “Bikurim” I doubt that the bringer of Bikurim faced the situations that disturbed you. You were very kind in asking for elaboration. in your place I would “challenge”

    #724207

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Busybody: Yochie was quoting a mishna that proves that if the kohen taking the bikurim cannot hear the farmer read the parsha, the farmer is not yotze. Some people also darshen from this (though it is *NOT* the source for any halacha, just a nice vort) that it is preferable to say all the responses in the service such as amen out loud.

    #724208

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Some people also darshen from this (though it is *NOT* the source for any halacha, just a nice vort) that it is preferable to say all the responses in the service such as amen out loud.

    That’s true, but I don’t think that was Yochie’s point because I already made allowances for the portions that are customarily recited aloud and in unison.

    The Wolf

    #724209

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Fair enough.

    #724210

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Although I dont find someone else davening loud disturbing, if you do then you for sure have mah d’soni lach, l’chavrecha lo sa’vid. I think i can imagine someone davening loud and behind everyone else would be annoying, esp if cos of him you cant hear the chazzan.

    Whats even more annoying is when ppl’s fones ring or receive texts in shul… GRRR!!!

    #724211

    Nonsense
    Member

    There is a Ramban in the end of this week’s Parsha (Bo) that elaborates on this point – of davening out loud. ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???. Look it up – it’s the last piece. He sais that this is the reason for creation!

    Besides for this reason, I heard from R. Miller Ztz”l, that when we do mitzvohs and especially when it comes to davening – talking to HaShem, we do it with enthusiasm. When talking to a friend or doing business, then it’s the time to tone down. That in effect puts things in their proper place. When Kohanim went about their ways in the Bais HaMikdash, the did it with vivaciousness and pomp, as ?????? say ????? ??? ?????. That’s why originally they would run onto the ???? vying for the ???? of the ??????.

    Nowdays, R. Miller ztz”l notes, we find even Torah oriented Yidden who find davening boring. Upon entering they pick out a bunch of seforim to look into, some publications, and then maybe a small siddur too. The davening as a whole is spent between on sefer and the next, with some mumbling in between. Is this Kavod HaShem? We’re talking about Talmidei Chachomim on Shabbos. How much worse for businessmen and during the week. ???? <click> ???? <send> ???? <inbox> ????? <outbox>. Disgusting! Is this all the attention we afford our creator. Then at the towards the conclusion of davening, the talis & tefilin long wrapped up, three feet out the door already waiting for him to finish and be done already! I once heard about an ancient custom by the Yekkies, if one removed his Tefilin before the very end of davening (being impatient) the Kehilla would fine him.

    The sport fans root their heros loudly, let us too root for HaSHem LOUDLY with fanfare.

    ?????? ?? ????? ?????.

    #724212

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is a Ramban in the end of this week’s Parsha (Bo) that elaborates on this point – of davening out loud. ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???. Look it up – it’s the last piece. He sais that this is the reason for creation!

    That’s all fine and well, but at the end of the day, the halacha is that davening should be done silently.

    The sport fans root their heros loudly, let us too root for HaSHem LOUDLY with fanfare.

    ?????? ?? ????? ?????.

    So, is it your contention that I was wrong to be so upset?

    The Wolf

    #724213

    people here are understanding “davening” in different ways.

    for example, youchie, Rabbi Miller, tzl was not referring to the silent Shemoneh Esrei, but to other areas of “davening”, particularly Pseulei D’Zimrah

    #724214

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    particularly Pseulei D’Zimrah

    The fact of the matter is that this was during Kabbolos Shabbos, which, in it’s nature, is very similar to P’sukei D’Zimrah.

    But even so, would you say that R. Miller was of the opinion that one is allowed to daven loud enough that he disturbs his neighbor and prevents him from davening properly?

    The Wolf

    #724215

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Obviously, Wolf is also refering to others parts of Davening. He was using Shmone Esrei as a booster for quiet Teffilla.

    A person should bear in mind his surroundings. If people finished a piece and are waiting to hear the Baal Teffilla, you have to tone down. I think it is inconsiderate to Daven loudly very close to someone when you are a whole different part. However, don’t write off Davening loud, just be considerate.

    #724216

    i dont know how Rabbi miller, tzl would answer your question wolf.

    he might say no, under such circumstances a person should not daven loudly.

    i could also hear him saying to the person who is bothered, it is proper to daven loudly and if someone is bothered he needs to work on himself.

    i would guess that if someone asked a loud davener to please keep it down because it was bothering his davening Rabbi Miller, tz’l would agree that he should daven more quietly

    #724217

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    and if someone is bothered he needs to work on himself.

    *I* need to work on *myself* because another person is so loud (and in a completely different part of the davening) that I can’t concentrate or hear the chazzan???!!!

    Even I, who has a tendency to blame himself for just about everything, cannot believe that.

    The Wolf

    #724218

    i dont know why i answer your questions. you surely will pick the answer apart. i quite expected something along those lines.

    i was responding to this post of yours which asked me the question with the key phrase: disturbs his neighbor and prevents him from davening properly?

    i didnt know you were talking about a person davening like a freight train

    #724219

    besides i made it clear i was completely hypothesizing.

    probably you are right

    im sure Rabbi Miller, tz’l would agree with you.

    #724220

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i didnt know you were talking about a person davening like a freight train

    Not a freight train, but still loudly enough to prevent me from concentrating on my own davening or hearing the chazzan. This is doubly so when he’s saying a different paragraph than everyone else.

    OK, but perhaps, maybe you’re right. Perhaps I need to work on myself. Perhaps I need to improve my sense of hearing. Or perhaps I have to learn to concentrate better. Perhaps I have to learn to not be so selfish as to value my davening over his.

    The Wolf

    #724221

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yochie,

    Is it your contention that I am wrong in taking my davening neighbors into consideration when davening?

    The Wolf

    #724222

    OK, but perhaps, maybe you’re right. Perhaps I need to work on myself

    i didnt say that!

    i HYPOTHESIZED that POSSIBLY that is what Rabbi Miller, tz’l MIGHT say to someone who was bothered by the actions of people around him.

    #724223

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i didnt say that!

    i HYPOTHESIZED that POSSIBLY that is what Rabbi Miller, tz’l MIGHT say to someone who was bothered by the actions of people around him.

    You’re right, you did say that. My apologies.

    But then again, you could hypothesize lots of things.

    The Wolf

    #724224

    But then again, you could hypothesize lots of things

    exactly my point

    #724225

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    exactly my point

    Now I’m confused. So if it’s something that R. Miller was unlikely to say, why even bring it up?

    The Wolf

    #724226

    Nonsense
    Member

    Rebbe Wolf

    I think Doggie answered correctly. Everything has to be taken in within its surroundings. He’s barking up the right tree.

    But it’s best to daven loudly (????? ?????, ???) as stated in the Ramban. A Rishon dosn’t need my haskama.

    But I do blame you for ‘who has a tendency to blame himself for just about everything’.

    #724227

    MHY
    Participant

    There are different levels of volume when talking.

    You don’t have to bring a meter to tell you the amount of decibels you are emitting, but people should realize that there is a difference between ????, ????, and ???? ??.

    It is a ??? ???? that one should not disturb others davening with them.

    The gemara also speaks negatively about one who davens too loudly.

    #724228

    metrodriver
    Member

    ItcheSrulik; There’s a world of difference between saying Amen (Omein) out loud and davening out of place with rest of the Minyan out loud (And letting the entire world know your proficiency (or the lack of it) in pronunciation.) and confusing everyone around you.

    #724229

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Derech eretz kadma l’Torah.

    If someone is davening so loudly that they’re keeping other people from davening with kavana, isn’t it only mentschlich to tone down a bit? If asked quietly and politely?

    #724230

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But it’s best to daven loudly (????? ?????, ???) as stated in the Ramban.

    But not loud enough to disturb others.

    The saying goes that your right to swing your fist ends at my face. Likewise, your right to daven loudly ends when it impairs my davening.

    I guess we just disagree on this.

    The Wolf

    #724231

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Wolf,

    It doesn’t seem that there is any disagreement here other than which half of the glass to discuss.

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