Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

Home Coffeeroom YWN Main Site & Coffee Room Issues Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 179 total)
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  • #587908

    chachom
    Participant

    Do you think YW should allow postings by pro-freikeit commentors (like illini07, rabbiofberlin, sammygol, cantoresq, Pashuteh, NeveAliza, Feif Un, lesschumras, etc.)?

    #625864

    Jewess
    Member

    How “frum” of you to post a comment so rich in ahavat yisrael.

    #625865

    Do you think YW should allow postings by people who think anyone who they disagree with is pro-freikeit (like edc)?

    Seriously, I too agree that many of the comments here are not al pi torah, but to call all those people pro-freikeit??? Mistaken maybe. But pro-freikeit?

    #625866

    Bogen
    Participant

    I agree with charlie brown. Maybe pro-freikeit is too strong a word, but there is definitely a problem with some of the above mentioned posters. And I think YW should exercise more discretion in moderating comments by rejecting those that are in conflict with al pi din. Even if they start yelling “censorship”, etc. The Torah does require a degree of censorship.

    #625867

    jphone
    Member

    In my humble opionion, let them write whatever they want. People with intelligence will be able to figure out what is and what is not correct. If someone is unsure, if they are intellectually honest, they would ask a question, to their Rav, mentor or whatever it is they call this person.

    I’m not sure where YWN wants to go with this “coffee room” area of their site, that is not really devoted to news, but if they are interested in creating a “chat area” then let all types of poster, heck I wouldnt care if missionaries came and posted messages (yes they are annoying), if that was the purpose of the “cofee room”. If someone wants to challenge the torah let them. There are enough people who can deal with them.

    #625868

    willi
    Member

    no, they should only allow comments from “edc”…

    I mean, what kind of question is this??

    You made me laugh so hard when I saw it!!

    #625869

    mdlevine
    Member

    one loses the debate when they leave the merits of the argument and resort to personal attacks.

    State your view.

    re-state/re-word your view if need be.

    argue on the merits and leave the attacks alone.

    I for one, am tired of all the back and forth fingerpointing and such that goes on. those on this side will not convince those on the other side. accept it, move forward.

    re: censorship. censorship is not an issue at all on Yeshiva World! the editor(s) may make a decision to not post a submission, however, that is not censorship. this is editoral rights by the person or people who created / own the site. If somebody is not happy with this, they have all rights to open their own site and articulate their views for the world to see. Nobody is stopping them, therefore there is no censorship.

    #625870

    feivel
    Participant

    i also wouldnt call them pro-freilkeit

    they are simply like stalks of wheat in the field of Golus, under the influence of whatever current goyish wind is blowing.

    they are hardly to be blamed, they were never taught what Yiddishkeit means. They were born in an era of the greatest darkness in the history of the world, but think they walk in light.

    they fulfill the Pasuk of “Hoster Hester”. not only is His face hidden, but they dont even know that it is hidden.

    let them post

    remember and use their posts

    when TishaB’Av comes, realize what we have lost, all the light, and try to weep.

    #625871

    Joseph
    Participant

    I for one appreciate Feivel’s approach.

    #625872

    chachom
    Participant

    Maybe a better description is leftists, or the religious left. Or simply watered-down Judaism.

    #625873

    reenmasheen
    Member

    even if these guys really are pro freilkeit are call them wahtever u want lemaaseh they start interesting comments and conversations which most people like the reason why this guy probably asked this question is because during one of the disscussions he was minorly insulted and since hes overly sensitive hes trying to knock those guys off the disscussion hes just making a fool out of himself by asking the question

    #625875

    illini07
    Member

    Ah yes, lest I forget that I am anti-Torah, anti-Jew, anti-Charedi, anti-everything, etc…

    Except, I still can’t recall exactly where I have made any comment that could be constructed as pro-freikeit. Joseph, since you are the expert on me as a person, how about you demonstrate to me via examples. Just in another post you said that I want to “reform halacha” when it doesn’t suit me, yet you provide no examples.

    If you can’t prove it, don’t say it.

    But again, I forget that if I don’t agree with the Charedi rabbanut, who often don’t even agree with each other, on every single issue, I clearly disdain halacha.

    How about this: all of you self-righteous tzaddikim stop acting like you know the first thing about ANYONE that comments here, unless you know them in person. Your ugly personal attacks belie your true middot.

    #625876

    favish
    Member

    to editor ..this is a shayleh you should ask dass torah …and that is not your “local” gadol…its a serious shayleh. “shani minus d’osi l’amshicay basrey….” and that is one of the reason dsehrliche newspapers were started (launched, for those who want fancy language) EG:hamodia,machne charedi etc.anyway we see were not the only one who has that opinion of these posters with those signitures. no, there is no free speech when it comes to anti torah views…

    #625877

    liddleyiddle
    Member

    Mdlevine: Very good definition of censorship. Right.

    If the editors edit out some comments (or parts of comments) based on their objectionableness, they are certainly censoring.

    #625878

    favish
    Member

    to “somebody” can you explain yourself? and if you mean what we think you mean, your name should be added to that list..ahavas yisroel is not a blank check..also if we admonish someone because according how we understand that poster, that their stance is anti torah its not out of sina..as mentined many times, if c’v they need “hatzalah” and if we’d been hatzalah we run with same bren to the rescue and we’re sure vise versa,unles mechallel shabbos etc.(not because of hate..but the reason muter to be mecallel shabbose does not pertain to one, see yome 84b(?)shulchen ureh, ohr hachayim 329 misna brureh seuf katan 9..mutav s’he yicullel shabbos acha keday s’yekayim shabboses harbe..{dont know if halacha l’mayse})

    ..so dont all of you come with statements,”hate in your heart” “ahavas yisroel” blah, blah etc, etc..and if there is hate ..its usually the opposite.. “gedolah sinas am haretz l’talmud chakam yoser m’sinas akum l’yiroel” and that doesnt mean only “talmud chochem” and “am haretz” it refers to “ehrlicha” and “poirkey oil”…and as you can see…(to thse who are upset that we use yiddish in this english speaking country dont read..yes we mean you! just kiddink. see post #41 in following link and pleny others in articles way backbackhttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/21276/Resident+Writes+Journal+News:+As+An+Orthodox+Jew+Myself,+I+Say,+Shame+On+You……html#comments

    #625879

    favish
    Member

    to willi..we thing he can add your name to that list..

    #625883

    mdlevine
    Member

    liddleyiddle: I am not sure I understand your post – was the first sentence meant to be sarcastic or did you omit a word in the second sentence?

    to clarify my point re censorship:

    They are using their editorial license to remove objectionable material from being posted on THEIR PRIVATELY owned website.

    Facts be as they are, the YWEditors can ban anybody they want AND it is NOT censorship because anybody who wants to get their message out can start their own site and post 24/6. YW does not control access to the electronic printing press.

    #625884

    Jewess
    Member

    jent1150:

    Go ahead add my name. I go by Jewess on the main forum but I barely post my thoughts there.

    Just becasuse you don’t agree with another’s point of view does not make him or her “pro-freikeit” which I believe to mean non religious.

    My point was that writing people’s names to ridicule them because you can’t see eye to eye with them lowers your (or the author’s) own level of religiousness. In addition to that I don’t think God looks nicely upon that especially in the “Three Weeks” when we are supposed to try to better OURSELVES and to guard our toungue even more.

    #625885

    willi
    Member

    (in response to your compliment) at the rate jent is adding names to the original post, it will soon fill up a page..

    jent I think you’ll be the only one not on the list.. – If I/willi am “frei” already then who’s not…

    #625886

    willi
    Member

    jent btw- what does ‘we thing’ mean?

    1- who’s WE? were you gazing into the mirror when you wrote it?

    2- we THING… spellcheck is a fine tool occassionally.

    #625887

    illini07 –

    ALthough we are probably on somewhat different sides re: many hashkofo opinions, I never would dream of calling your hashkofos “pro-freikeit”.

    I believe you and (almost) all other posters on this site are shomer-Shabbos bnei Yisroel who I would be happy to have at my Shabbos table and whose kashrus I would trust (meaning I would trust them about which hashgochos they used, not necessarily use those hashgochos myself).

    I would ammend your closing comment thusly: All of you stop acting like you know the first thing about ANYONE that comments here, unless you know them in person. Your ugly personal attacks belie your true middot.

    The lack of respect shown by some posters is appalling, as is this topic, and the calling out by (screen) name of individuals.

    To the credit of the poster, he did back off slightly.

    Please, when you disagree, do so respectfully.

    #625888

    yoshi
    Member

    Every Jewish person visiting this website has their own personal perspectives on several topics of discussions here on YW. They have the right to post their opinions & to be heard, even if you don’t approve or agree with what they say & how they express themselves. If you are completely offended by what another person has posted then don’t continue reading & responding if you feel too uncomfortable or angered, you may only further a “hate” type of discussion that will only lead to fights and negative thoughts toward one another. There is so much judgement being thrown around on this forum. By having Jews from all walks of life voice their opinions, we have a greater insight of who everyone is, and maybe in turn pass a little less judgement, once knowing where they are coming from.

    #625889

    Bogen
    Participant

    I too would be happy to have illini07 at my Shabbos table. We might be able to be mekarev him 🙂 About the Kashrus part, I dunno…

    (Besides “I can only try”, how can you rely on someones kashrus if you say you may not trust the hashgochos that person uses? That person would’ve been using food with hashgochos you don’t [necessarily] use on all his keilim used for the food he prepares for you.)

    #625890

    favish
    Member

    to willi page 1..go ahead and add my name…

    #625891

    favish
    Member

    to “i can onlt try”…tut, tut isnt that “APPALLING”..what an over used cliche’…by the way nobody knows identity of any posters..so what you haking a cheinik..so we hit a raw nerve by you too…

    #625892

    illini07
    Member

    I can only try:

    I could not agree with you any more. Likewise, I am sure that I would get along rather famously with many people here whom I disagree with on various issues. I don’t doubt for a second that most posters here have a tremendous amount of ahavas Yisroel, and are wonderful people. People are bound to not see eye-to-eye; that’s no reason we can’t all be civil (and even friends!).

    On an aside, I do confess your post states my idea in a much classier way than mine. Baseless personal attacks sometimes agitate me to the point where I cannot help but to put a little “snark” in my response. One of the several things I need to work on, on a personal level.

    Yishar Koach

    #625893

    knocker
    Member

    It’s not a question of who is writing the post, it’s more of a question of what is written. That should be a question for a Rav, not a forum.

    #625894

    favish
    Member

    to somebody, page 1…thats the problem..its “their point of view” there is such a think (to willi-thing)as dass torah,not that we(to willi-mir )are dass torah but at least we (mir) base ourselfs on shulchen urech ,mamrei chazl etc,, we (mir)may be wrong, the opposite which side, like you say is opinions, opinions is not dass torah .and what are those opinions they are a mishmash of dass that we are subconciously influnced by decadance of our society(by reding all shmutz mags, newspapers,etc, with mix torah . “v’yavdail elok…bein huoir uvein hachoshech” see medrish, actuallay gemmorah too..also when we point out a gemmorah the other “opinion” says “he is a amorah, we cant be like that ..” what a am haratzos..the gemmorah points out its wrong to go dressed in prevocative manner, and he comes whith such ignorames statement…we can take every halacha and disregard it because an amorah said it and we are not an amorah. yes he’ll say the gemmorah wants to bring out how previous generations were moiser nefesh…but that does not negate the moral of the memreh that bas yiroel should not go dressed in provacative clothing…besides one can make a lenge drasha how heilige offsprings depends on the mothers tzenious from shas shulchen urech, (NOT OPINIONS !!) buts that too long pshetel, so mr illii07,big talud chochiom, your invited to present such a pshetel…or matbe the shass shulchen urech is TALIBANIZTION ,afre l’pima??

    #625895

    illini07
    Member

    Qwerty:

    I would join you for a shabbos meal in a heartbeat, however, just as was stated above, I question why you are so quick to assume that I am in need of kiruv.

    What several people can’t wrap their heads around is that often times, I present the opposite side of their argument, regardless of what I believe on a personal level. Further, even if I do have some more lenient/modern hashkafos in certain areas (most of which are also held by well-respected rabbonim), it does not necessarily follow that my kashrut or observance of other mitzvos are suspect. Words are one thing, actions are another. You have seen only part of one, and none of the other.

    Perhaps be dan l’kav zchus on me regarding my being shomer Torah and Mitzvos?

    #625896

    dimyon
    Member

    This discussion, from the start, is deeply upsetting. What goal is edc trying to reach by banning any differing voices? Doesn’t anyone have the gumtion to stick to their own opinions without banning diverse objectives? Come on! Is your frumkeit so weak that that the terror of hearing others’ takes on the topic is enough to shake your own ideals? Do you take another’s logic as a threat to your own hashkafos? Kicking them out of the forum is a move of cowardice, and if it’s trying to prove any point at all, it’s giving legitimacy to their “dissenting” perspectives. I’m not that familiar with the ideas of many of the blacklisted members, but I’ve often been impressed with their intelligent and well articulated posts. Nor would I venture to say that they’re professing a “frei” lifestyle! Their logical take on things may be somewhat daunting for unchallenged minds that are accustomed to the habit of “shtipping” away any ideas that are a threat to their way of thinking….a threat to their emuna, a threat to the rationale of their lifestyle. Besides for being intellectually unethical and immature, it shows a sad weakness of the frum community, a lack of confidence in dvar Hashem, a queasy attitude towards the foundations of our way of life.

    #625897

    Leib5
    Member

    Dear MDLEVINE,

    I disagree with your position on censorship. Censorship is defined as discriminating against views because of their content. Hence, if the editor decides to exclude a comment because he disagrees with its content he is censoring, notwithstanding the fact that anybody can start his or her own blog and post any comment that comes to his or her mind. Yes, as Baal Haboss, he has a legal right to do so, but if he is right or prudent in censoring is another question. As far as his editorial responsibilities are concerned, I do wholeheartly agree that he can exclude slanderous comments relating to individuals or comments that do not relate to a topic under discussion.

    #625898

    Joseph
    Participant

    illini – Can’t kiruv be applied to anyone?

    Leib5 – The Torah demands a degree of censorship (despite whether liberal America may not like censorship.)

    #625899

    tvt
    Member

    This thread may be the dopiest one I’ve seen yet on YWN (and that’s saying something).

    Apparently edc’s definition of pro-freikeit means ever articulating any thought that questions or is at odds with conventional right-wing yeshivish thinking.

    So, for the record then, you can add me to the list as well.

    Come to think of it, you can probably add a good number other Rabonim and Roshei yeshivah.

    #625900

    cherrybim
    Participant

    We can all be added to the list since we are all on the internet, and you know what that means.

    #625901

    [bodek or not]

    jent1150 –

    I am going to make a few assumptions, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    You are young, 20 or less.

    You live in Eretz Yisroel.

    You are a bochur.

    You have limited or no contact with the non-yeshivish oilam.

    You did not consult with your Rav/Rebbe before posting your remarks.

    Yes, you hit a nerve with your strongly-worded condemnations of other frum people. Is that what you wanted to do? If so, why?

    Respectfully yours.

    illini07-

    You made your point well.

    An informative, respectful discussion of halachos and minhagim would probably be something appropriate for a seuda.

    There are more than enough kulos, chumros and differences in opinion to fill many volumes. Even those who are most machmir on some things are makil on others and vice-versa.

    Among the many:

    The boro park eiruv

    The time between fleishig and milchig

    The zman Shabbos ends

    Kitnayos on Pesach

    Hat covers on Shabbos

    #625902

    torahis1
    Member

    I was disappointed that my name was not included in the sanctimonious letter writers ‘list’

    this list is an honor, illini – I envy u!

    #625903

    amusedreader
    Participant

    This whole thread is sickening. illini07, don’t even distinguish what some of these ignoramuses say by responding. The baryonim (zealots) that started this thread or wrote in support should remember to read about Churban Bayis Sheni this Tisha B’Av, specifically about the lengths that Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai had to go to to meet with Vespasian because of people like you.

    #625904

    chachom
    Participant

    torahis1, You have returned! Beruchim Haboim! We thought you were at Aish or some self-imposed exile doing teshuva. But lets welcome you back to the fold.

    Of course I’ll do you the honors of adding you to your rightful place…

    #625905

    illini07
    Member

    Joseph: That is, of course correct. It is possible to be mekarev anyone. That’s not how I read it, but perhaps it’s how I should have. Or, as I Can Only Try pointed out, he may well have been making a joke I didn’t pick up on.

    ICOT:

    Indeed, one of my favorite things to do is spend a Friday night shabbos dinner talking about these things with friends and family. You know, 2 Jews – 3 opinions? It’s a great time and makes Shabbos special.

    #625906

    Bogen
    Participant

    “I can only try”, If you only eat Cholov Yisroel, and the person you eat by eats Cholov Akum, he may have used his keilim to cook Cholov Akim food. So all his keilim may potentially be unusable by you, even if he honestly serves you only food that you would rely on.

    Or similarly if you only rely on certain hechsheirim for meat, and he cooked with his keilim (long before your visit) meat with hechsheirim you wouldn’t use, all his keilim may now be affected by that non-reliable (for you) hechsheirim.

    #625907

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Torahis1, I am very sorry but this list is reserved exclusively for the biggest “apikursim” on YW, of which I am proud to be a member. You obviously understand that we can’t accept just anyone into this club. The application process alone will take you months. You first need a transcript from an accredited college, and 3 letters of recommendation from Rabbonim whose shuls you have been thrown out of attesting to your krum hashkafas. You must also get a letter from the Israeli govt saying you are a certified Zionist. You must wave the Israeli flag on Yom Hatzmaut, and say Hallel with a bracha and a flag. You must eat Bamba snacks with a blue and white logo. You must enroll for a zman at Rav Druckman’s Yeshiva. You must also get a signed letter from the Dean of Yeshiva University stating that you have walked in there at some point, and that you are familiar with their motto. You must be able to recite this motto b’al peh. Finally, you must visit 770 Eastern Parkway and learn 3 Lubavitch songs and be tested on your singing. You must chant Yechi Adoneinu before davening.

    In addition to this, you must submit an original project of your own initiative proving that you are indeed an “apikorus” and that you are worthy of being inducted into the club. It will be judged by a panel of qualified judges.

    Good luck, and we look forward to hearing from you.

    #625908

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” page 2…according to you shita, your conclusion of a),b) ,c) you are noigayab’dover. …also hope you’re not a carpenter, because you missed on a

    ALL your assumptions (aka cant say on any “you hit it on the head”). so back to the issues at hand you say A)onuous devorim..give explicit sample so we can correct or refute B) shekker..please point out which statement is shekker so we can correct or refute C) please point out which statement is chillil hashem so we can correct or refute.. just in case, to point out to someone that what he says is against shulchen urech (maybe we were mistake, but weren’t proven) is not oinuous devorim we know it hurts but…. you say “…in kanoi manner…” we dont even see you be moichiach in unkanoi manner…so can you give example how you would..? ..by the way will let one thing about mir slip…mir hoben kain ein horah over 20 einiklech

    #625909

    lgbg
    Member

    edc

    no idea why im defending them, however edc, how old are you and how low is your selfesteem to post such a topic?

    they have a right to post what they think just like you have a right!

    #625910

    mdlevine
    Member

    hopefully my last post on censorship

    1) I have seen may posts critical of YWeditors throughout the almost 2 years that I have been reading and commenting. I think that it is clear to all that comments do not get rejected because they are critical of the editors, rather they are rejected do to the tone (language, loshon hara, blatant heretical thoughts, etc of the post). Essentially, the very precept of this thread is an attack on the YWeditors in that what is really being said in post 1, is that YWeditors do not know how to run their site and they allow things that do not belong here. By opening this thread for public consumption, YWeditors are being intellectually honest and accepting of critism, whether they agree or not.

    2) nobody of power is preventing anyone from saying any silly (or non-silly) thought that comes to their mind.

    3) Posting in someone else’s website is not a right it is a privilege and we need to discriminate between censorship and editorial freedom. I have had comments not posted and I have had suggestions for coffeeroom discussions not posted. Was I censored? no. whatever the reason the editor felt not to publish is his choice and his alone. I have sent letter to newspapers, some made it in, others did not. was it censorship? no. these are editorial decisions. I have seen entire threads being removed because something in the content after review did not seem appropriate to the editor. Censorship? no! editorial right? yes! If at anytime I or anyone else felt such a burning desire to get my/their voice heard on an opinion that was not accepted, I/they can go to other boards or create my/their own blog.

    being as I am not going to convince anyone anyways, I will post one last note (perhaps) on this thread:

    discrimination and censorship have taken on negative connotations.

    We discriminate daily, I prefer to doven in this Shul as opposed to that Shul. I like this ice cream and not that ice cream — the list goes on.

    We utilize censorship on a daily basis also. We do not allow our children to talk in certain ways and use inappropriate language. We look at the books that they take from the library and do not allow them to check certain books out — and this list goes on.

    discrimination and censorship when used responsibly are proper tools for all.

    #625911

    Leib5
    Member

    Joseph,

    As someone who learned in yeshiva( BMG included), I can tell you there can be only three instances where halocha would require YWN to censor.

    Second instance, if the statements are slanderous and can unnecessarily harm particular individual then too, the statements should not be posted.

    #625912

    qwerty-

    You raise valid points.

    jent1150-

    I did not do extensive research on your past remarks, because my intent is not to win an argument. The remarks I quoted above were the result of Googling your screen name, and looking at the first few hits.

    I appreciate your responding to my request for correction of my (incorrect) assumptions.

    Please respond to that, as well.

    #625913

    Joseph
    Participant

    Leib5 –

    I hadn’t specified the conditions WHEN the Torah requires censorship. But as you enumerated in you preceding comment, there ARE times when the Torah demands censorship.

    #625914

    jent1150-

    After rereading my previous post I must apologize.

    #625915

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” page 2 try..in the meantime we dont see you give tochceh altogether..you side with..”oisvai torah yehallelelu…v’shimorei torah yisgeru bom” you say “comdemnation”, we comdem people? “yitamu chatoim,vlo chotim” br. 10a we point out what we think is against halacha of the issue discussed,mir(ok ,now mr illini07?).and bring reyous,we(mir) maybe wrong but if yes refute with reyous al pi halacha ,gemmorah, not opinions. for you its condemnation.. because the truth hurts so what should we do. so, young man, for pashute elemntary svarah we dont have to run to my rov and ask…(what?t to point out what we said in this post is allowed?are you a immature child that you cant undertand this? that we have to run to my rov and ask?

    #625916

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” what can we say, you didnt try hard enough…please tuch up your reading comprihension…we asked “give a SPECIFIC example of each camplain so we can correct or refut not the meaning of those terms now we will give you ONE MORE CHANCE

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