Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

Home Coffeeroom YWN Main Site & Coffee Room Issues Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

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  • #587908

    chachom
    Member

    Do you think YW should allow postings by pro-freikeit commentors (like illini07, rabbiofberlin, sammygol, cantoresq, Pashuteh, NeveAliza, Feif Un, lesschumras, etc.)?

  • #625864

    Jewess
    Member

    How “frum” of you to post a comment so rich in ahavat yisrael.

  • #625865

    Do you think YW should allow postings by people who think anyone who they disagree with is pro-freikeit (like edc)?

    Seriously, I too agree that many of the comments here are not al pi torah, but to call all those people pro-freikeit??? Mistaken maybe. But pro-freikeit?

  • #625866

    Bogen
    Member

    I agree with charlie brown. Maybe pro-freikeit is too strong a word, but there is definitely a problem with some of the above mentioned posters. And I think YW should exercise more discretion in moderating comments by rejecting those that are in conflict with al pi din. Even if they start yelling “censorship”, etc. The Torah does require a degree of censorship.

  • #625867

    jphone
    Member

    In my humble opionion, let them write whatever they want. People with intelligence will be able to figure out what is and what is not correct. If someone is unsure, if they are intellectually honest, they would ask a question, to their Rav, mentor or whatever it is they call this person.

    I’m not sure where YWN wants to go with this “coffee room” area of their site, that is not really devoted to news, but if they are interested in creating a “chat area” then let all types of poster, heck I wouldnt care if missionaries came and posted messages (yes they are annoying), if that was the purpose of the “cofee room”. If someone wants to challenge the torah let them. There are enough people who can deal with them.

  • #625868

    willi
    Member

    no, they should only allow comments from “edc”…

    I mean, what kind of question is this??

    You made me laugh so hard when I saw it!!

  • #625869

    mdlevine
    Member

    one loses the debate when they leave the merits of the argument and resort to personal attacks.

    State your view.

    re-state/re-word your view if need be.

    argue on the merits and leave the attacks alone.

    I for one, am tired of all the back and forth fingerpointing and such that goes on. those on this side will not convince those on the other side. accept it, move forward.

    re: censorship. censorship is not an issue at all on Yeshiva World! the editor(s) may make a decision to not post a submission, however, that is not censorship. this is editoral rights by the person or people who created / own the site. If somebody is not happy with this, they have all rights to open their own site and articulate their views for the world to see. Nobody is stopping them, therefore there is no censorship.

  • #625870

    feivel
    Participant

    i also wouldnt call them pro-freilkeit

    they are simply like stalks of wheat in the field of Golus, under the influence of whatever current goyish wind is blowing.

    they are hardly to be blamed, they were never taught what Yiddishkeit means. They were born in an era of the greatest darkness in the history of the world, but think they walk in light.

    they fulfill the Pasuk of “Hoster Hester”. not only is His face hidden, but they dont even know that it is hidden.

    let them post

    remember and use their posts

    when TishaB’Av comes, realize what we have lost, all the light, and try to weep.

  • #625871

    Joseph
    Member

    I for one appreciate Feivel’s approach.

  • #625872

    chachom
    Member

    Maybe a better description is leftists, or the religious left. Or simply watered-down Judaism.

  • #625873

    reenmasheen
    Member

    even if these guys really are pro freilkeit are call them wahtever u want lemaaseh they start interesting comments and conversations which most people like the reason why this guy probably asked this question is because during one of the disscussions he was minorly insulted and since hes overly sensitive hes trying to knock those guys off the disscussion hes just making a fool out of himself by asking the question

  • #625875

    illini07
    Member

    Ah yes, lest I forget that I am anti-Torah, anti-Jew, anti-Charedi, anti-everything, etc…

    Except, I still can’t recall exactly where I have made any comment that could be constructed as pro-freikeit. Joseph, since you are the expert on me as a person, how about you demonstrate to me via examples. Just in another post you said that I want to “reform halacha” when it doesn’t suit me, yet you provide no examples.

    If you can’t prove it, don’t say it.

    But again, I forget that if I don’t agree with the Charedi rabbanut, who often don’t even agree with each other, on every single issue, I clearly disdain halacha.

    How about this: all of you self-righteous tzaddikim stop acting like you know the first thing about ANYONE that comments here, unless you know them in person. Your ugly personal attacks belie your true middot.

  • #625876

    favish
    Member

    to editor ..this is a shayleh you should ask dass torah …and that is not your “local” gadol…its a serious shayleh. “shani minus d’osi l’amshicay basrey….” and that is one of the reason dsehrliche newspapers were started (launched, for those who want fancy language) EG:hamodia,machne charedi etc.anyway we see were not the only one who has that opinion of these posters with those signitures. no, there is no free speech when it comes to anti torah views…

  • #625877

    liddleyiddle
    Member

    Mdlevine: Very good definition of censorship. Right.

    If the editors edit out some comments (or parts of comments) based on their objectionableness, they are certainly censoring.

  • #625878

    favish
    Member

    to “somebody” can you explain yourself? and if you mean what we think you mean, your name should be added to that list..ahavas yisroel is not a blank check..also if we admonish someone because according how we understand that poster, that their stance is anti torah its not out of sina..as mentined many times, if c’v they need “hatzalah” and if we’d been hatzalah we run with same bren to the rescue and we’re sure vise versa,unles mechallel shabbos etc.(not because of hate..but the reason muter to be mecallel shabbose does not pertain to one, see yome 84b(?)shulchen ureh, ohr hachayim 329 misna brureh seuf katan 9..mutav s’he yicullel shabbos acha keday s’yekayim shabboses harbe..{dont know if halacha l’mayse})

    ..so dont all of you come with statements,”hate in your heart” “ahavas yisroel” blah, blah etc, etc..and if there is hate ..its usually the opposite.. “gedolah sinas am haretz l’talmud chakam yoser m’sinas akum l’yiroel” and that doesnt mean only “talmud chochem” and “am haretz” it refers to “ehrlicha” and “poirkey oil”…and as you can see…(to thse who are upset that we use yiddish in this english speaking country dont read..yes we mean you! just kiddink. see post #41 in following link and pleny others in articles way backbackhttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/21276/Resident+Writes+Journal+News:+As+An+Orthodox+Jew+Myself,+I+Say,+Shame+On+You……html#comments

  • #625879

    favish
    Member

    to willi..we thing he can add your name to that list..

  • #625883

    mdlevine
    Member

    liddleyiddle: I am not sure I understand your post – was the first sentence meant to be sarcastic or did you omit a word in the second sentence?

    to clarify my point re censorship:

    They are using their editorial license to remove objectionable material from being posted on THEIR PRIVATELY owned website.

    Facts be as they are, the YWEditors can ban anybody they want AND it is NOT censorship because anybody who wants to get their message out can start their own site and post 24/6. YW does not control access to the electronic printing press.

  • #625884

    Jewess
    Member

    jent1150:

    Go ahead add my name. I go by Jewess on the main forum but I barely post my thoughts there.

    Just becasuse you don’t agree with another’s point of view does not make him or her “pro-freikeit” which I believe to mean non religious.

    My point was that writing people’s names to ridicule them because you can’t see eye to eye with them lowers your (or the author’s) own level of religiousness. In addition to that I don’t think God looks nicely upon that especially in the “Three Weeks” when we are supposed to try to better OURSELVES and to guard our toungue even more.

  • #625885

    willi
    Member

    (in response to your compliment) at the rate jent is adding names to the original post, it will soon fill up a page..

    jent I think you’ll be the only one not on the list.. – If I/willi am “frei” already then who’s not…

  • #625886

    willi
    Member

    jent btw- what does ‘we thing’ mean?

    1- who’s WE? were you gazing into the mirror when you wrote it?

    2- we THING… spellcheck is a fine tool occassionally.

  • #625887

    illini07 –

    ALthough we are probably on somewhat different sides re: many hashkofo opinions, I never would dream of calling your hashkofos “pro-freikeit”.

    I believe you and (almost) all other posters on this site are shomer-Shabbos bnei Yisroel who I would be happy to have at my Shabbos table and whose kashrus I would trust (meaning I would trust them about which hashgochos they used, not necessarily use those hashgochos myself).

    I would ammend your closing comment thusly: All of you stop acting like you know the first thing about ANYONE that comments here, unless you know them in person. Your ugly personal attacks belie your true middot.

    The lack of respect shown by some posters is appalling, as is this topic, and the calling out by (screen) name of individuals.

    To the credit of the poster, he did back off slightly.

    Please, when you disagree, do so respectfully.

  • #625888

    yoshi
    Member

    Every Jewish person visiting this website has their own personal perspectives on several topics of discussions here on YW. They have the right to post their opinions & to be heard, even if you don’t approve or agree with what they say & how they express themselves. If you are completely offended by what another person has posted then don’t continue reading & responding if you feel too uncomfortable or angered, you may only further a “hate” type of discussion that will only lead to fights and negative thoughts toward one another. There is so much judgement being thrown around on this forum. By having Jews from all walks of life voice their opinions, we have a greater insight of who everyone is, and maybe in turn pass a little less judgement, once knowing where they are coming from.

  • #625889

    Bogen
    Member

    I too would be happy to have illini07 at my Shabbos table. We might be able to be mekarev him 🙂 About the Kashrus part, I dunno…

    (Besides “I can only try”, how can you rely on someones kashrus if you say you may not trust the hashgochos that person uses? That person would’ve been using food with hashgochos you don’t [necessarily] use on all his keilim used for the food he prepares for you.)

  • #625890

    favish
    Member

    to willi page 1..go ahead and add my name…

  • #625891

    favish
    Member

    to “i can onlt try”…tut, tut isnt that “APPALLING”..what an over used cliche’…by the way nobody knows identity of any posters..so what you haking a cheinik..so we hit a raw nerve by you too…

  • #625892

    illini07
    Member

    I can only try:

    I could not agree with you any more. Likewise, I am sure that I would get along rather famously with many people here whom I disagree with on various issues. I don’t doubt for a second that most posters here have a tremendous amount of ahavas Yisroel, and are wonderful people. People are bound to not see eye-to-eye; that’s no reason we can’t all be civil (and even friends!).

    On an aside, I do confess your post states my idea in a much classier way than mine. Baseless personal attacks sometimes agitate me to the point where I cannot help but to put a little “snark” in my response. One of the several things I need to work on, on a personal level.

    Yishar Koach

  • #625893

    knocker
    Member

    It’s not a question of who is writing the post, it’s more of a question of what is written. That should be a question for a Rav, not a forum.

  • #625894

    favish
    Member

    to somebody, page 1…thats the problem..its “their point of view” there is such a think (to willi-thing)as dass torah,not that we(to willi-mir )are dass torah but at least we (mir) base ourselfs on shulchen urech ,mamrei chazl etc,, we (mir)may be wrong, the opposite which side, like you say is opinions, opinions is not dass torah .and what are those opinions they are a mishmash of dass that we are subconciously influnced by decadance of our society(by reding all shmutz mags, newspapers,etc, with mix torah . “v’yavdail elok…bein huoir uvein hachoshech” see medrish, actuallay gemmorah too..also when we point out a gemmorah the other “opinion” says “he is a amorah, we cant be like that ..” what a am haratzos..the gemmorah points out its wrong to go dressed in prevocative manner, and he comes whith such ignorames statement…we can take every halacha and disregard it because an amorah said it and we are not an amorah. yes he’ll say the gemmorah wants to bring out how previous generations were moiser nefesh…but that does not negate the moral of the memreh that bas yiroel should not go dressed in provacative clothing…besides one can make a lenge drasha how heilige offsprings depends on the mothers tzenious from shas shulchen urech, (NOT OPINIONS !!) buts that too long pshetel, so mr illii07,big talud chochiom, your invited to present such a pshetel…or matbe the shass shulchen urech is TALIBANIZTION ,afre l’pima??

  • #625895

    illini07
    Member

    Qwerty:

    I would join you for a shabbos meal in a heartbeat, however, just as was stated above, I question why you are so quick to assume that I am in need of kiruv.

    What several people can’t wrap their heads around is that often times, I present the opposite side of their argument, regardless of what I believe on a personal level. Further, even if I do have some more lenient/modern hashkafos in certain areas (most of which are also held by well-respected rabbonim), it does not necessarily follow that my kashrut or observance of other mitzvos are suspect. Words are one thing, actions are another. You have seen only part of one, and none of the other.

    Perhaps be dan l’kav zchus on me regarding my being shomer Torah and Mitzvos?

  • #625896

    dimyon
    Member

    This discussion, from the start, is deeply upsetting. What goal is edc trying to reach by banning any differing voices? Doesn’t anyone have the gumtion to stick to their own opinions without banning diverse objectives? Come on! Is your frumkeit so weak that that the terror of hearing others’ takes on the topic is enough to shake your own ideals? Do you take another’s logic as a threat to your own hashkafos? Kicking them out of the forum is a move of cowardice, and if it’s trying to prove any point at all, it’s giving legitimacy to their “dissenting” perspectives. I’m not that familiar with the ideas of many of the blacklisted members, but I’ve often been impressed with their intelligent and well articulated posts. Nor would I venture to say that they’re professing a “frei” lifestyle! Their logical take on things may be somewhat daunting for unchallenged minds that are accustomed to the habit of “shtipping” away any ideas that are a threat to their way of thinking….a threat to their emuna, a threat to the rationale of their lifestyle. Besides for being intellectually unethical and immature, it shows a sad weakness of the frum community, a lack of confidence in dvar Hashem, a queasy attitude towards the foundations of our way of life.

  • #625897

    Leib5
    Member

    Dear MDLEVINE,

    I disagree with your position on censorship. Censorship is defined as discriminating against views because of their content. Hence, if the editor decides to exclude a comment because he disagrees with its content he is censoring, notwithstanding the fact that anybody can start his or her own blog and post any comment that comes to his or her mind. Yes, as Baal Haboss, he has a legal right to do so, but if he is right or prudent in censoring is another question. As far as his editorial responsibilities are concerned, I do wholeheartly agree that he can exclude slanderous comments relating to individuals or comments that do not relate to a topic under discussion.

  • #625898

    Joseph
    Member

    illini – Can’t kiruv be applied to anyone?

    Leib5 – The Torah demands a degree of censorship (despite whether liberal America may not like censorship.)

  • #625899

    tvt
    Member

    This thread may be the dopiest one I’ve seen yet on YWN (and that’s saying something).

    Apparently edc’s definition of pro-freikeit means ever articulating any thought that questions or is at odds with conventional right-wing yeshivish thinking.

    So, for the record then, you can add me to the list as well.

    Come to think of it, you can probably add a good number other Rabonim and Roshei yeshivah.

  • #625900

    cherrybim
    Participant

    We can all be added to the list since we are all on the internet, and you know what that means.

  • #625901

    [bodek or not]

    jent1150 –

    I am going to make a few assumptions, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    You are young, 20 or less.

    You live in Eretz Yisroel.

    You are a bochur.

    You have limited or no contact with the non-yeshivish oilam.

    You did not consult with your Rav/Rebbe before posting your remarks.

    Yes, you hit a nerve with your strongly-worded condemnations of other frum people. Is that what you wanted to do? If so, why?

    Respectfully yours.

    illini07-

    You made your point well.

    An informative, respectful discussion of halachos and minhagim would probably be something appropriate for a seuda.

    There are more than enough kulos, chumros and differences in opinion to fill many volumes. Even those who are most machmir on some things are makil on others and vice-versa.

    Among the many:

    The boro park eiruv

    The time between fleishig and milchig

    The zman Shabbos ends

    Kitnayos on Pesach

    Hat covers on Shabbos

  • #625902

    torahis1
    Member

    I was disappointed that my name was not included in the sanctimonious letter writers ‘list’

    this list is an honor, illini – I envy u!

  • #625903

    amusedreader
    Participant

    This whole thread is sickening. illini07, don’t even distinguish what some of these ignoramuses say by responding. The baryonim (zealots) that started this thread or wrote in support should remember to read about Churban Bayis Sheni this Tisha B’Av, specifically about the lengths that Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai had to go to to meet with Vespasian because of people like you.

  • #625904

    chachom
    Member

    torahis1, You have returned! Beruchim Haboim! We thought you were at Aish or some self-imposed exile doing teshuva. But lets welcome you back to the fold.

    Of course I’ll do you the honors of adding you to your rightful place…

  • #625905

    illini07
    Member

    Joseph: That is, of course correct. It is possible to be mekarev anyone. That’s not how I read it, but perhaps it’s how I should have. Or, as I Can Only Try pointed out, he may well have been making a joke I didn’t pick up on.

    ICOT:

    Indeed, one of my favorite things to do is spend a Friday night shabbos dinner talking about these things with friends and family. You know, 2 Jews – 3 opinions? It’s a great time and makes Shabbos special.

  • #625906

    Bogen
    Member

    “I can only try”, If you only eat Cholov Yisroel, and the person you eat by eats Cholov Akum, he may have used his keilim to cook Cholov Akim food. So all his keilim may potentially be unusable by you, even if he honestly serves you only food that you would rely on.

    Or similarly if you only rely on certain hechsheirim for meat, and he cooked with his keilim (long before your visit) meat with hechsheirim you wouldn’t use, all his keilim may now be affected by that non-reliable (for you) hechsheirim.

  • #625907

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Torahis1, I am very sorry but this list is reserved exclusively for the biggest “apikursim” on YW, of which I am proud to be a member. You obviously understand that we can’t accept just anyone into this club. The application process alone will take you months. You first need a transcript from an accredited college, and 3 letters of recommendation from Rabbonim whose shuls you have been thrown out of attesting to your krum hashkafas. You must also get a letter from the Israeli govt saying you are a certified Zionist. You must wave the Israeli flag on Yom Hatzmaut, and say Hallel with a bracha and a flag. You must eat Bamba snacks with a blue and white logo. You must enroll for a zman at Rav Druckman’s Yeshiva. You must also get a signed letter from the Dean of Yeshiva University stating that you have walked in there at some point, and that you are familiar with their motto. You must be able to recite this motto b’al peh. Finally, you must visit 770 Eastern Parkway and learn 3 Lubavitch songs and be tested on your singing. You must chant Yechi Adoneinu before davening.

    In addition to this, you must submit an original project of your own initiative proving that you are indeed an “apikorus” and that you are worthy of being inducted into the club. It will be judged by a panel of qualified judges.

    Good luck, and we look forward to hearing from you.

  • #625908

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” page 2…according to you shita, your conclusion of a),b) ,c) you are noigayab’dover. …also hope you’re not a carpenter, because you missed on a

    ALL your assumptions (aka cant say on any “you hit it on the head”). so back to the issues at hand you say A)onuous devorim..give explicit sample so we can correct or refute B) shekker..please point out which statement is shekker so we can correct or refute C) please point out which statement is chillil hashem so we can correct or refute.. just in case, to point out to someone that what he says is against shulchen urech (maybe we were mistake, but weren’t proven) is not oinuous devorim we know it hurts but…. you say “…in kanoi manner…” we dont even see you be moichiach in unkanoi manner…so can you give example how you would..? ..by the way will let one thing about mir slip…mir hoben kain ein horah over 20 einiklech

  • #625909

    lgbg
    Member

    edc

    no idea why im defending them, however edc, how old are you and how low is your selfesteem to post such a topic?

    they have a right to post what they think just like you have a right!

  • #625910

    mdlevine
    Member

    hopefully my last post on censorship

    1) I have seen may posts critical of YWeditors throughout the almost 2 years that I have been reading and commenting. I think that it is clear to all that comments do not get rejected because they are critical of the editors, rather they are rejected do to the tone (language, loshon hara, blatant heretical thoughts, etc of the post). Essentially, the very precept of this thread is an attack on the YWeditors in that what is really being said in post 1, is that YWeditors do not know how to run their site and they allow things that do not belong here. By opening this thread for public consumption, YWeditors are being intellectually honest and accepting of critism, whether they agree or not.

    2) nobody of power is preventing anyone from saying any silly (or non-silly) thought that comes to their mind.

    3) Posting in someone else’s website is not a right it is a privilege and we need to discriminate between censorship and editorial freedom. I have had comments not posted and I have had suggestions for coffeeroom discussions not posted. Was I censored? no. whatever the reason the editor felt not to publish is his choice and his alone. I have sent letter to newspapers, some made it in, others did not. was it censorship? no. these are editorial decisions. I have seen entire threads being removed because something in the content after review did not seem appropriate to the editor. Censorship? no! editorial right? yes! If at anytime I or anyone else felt such a burning desire to get my/their voice heard on an opinion that was not accepted, I/they can go to other boards or create my/their own blog.

    being as I am not going to convince anyone anyways, I will post one last note (perhaps) on this thread:

    discrimination and censorship have taken on negative connotations.

    We discriminate daily, I prefer to doven in this Shul as opposed to that Shul. I like this ice cream and not that ice cream — the list goes on.

    We utilize censorship on a daily basis also. We do not allow our children to talk in certain ways and use inappropriate language. We look at the books that they take from the library and do not allow them to check certain books out — and this list goes on.

    discrimination and censorship when used responsibly are proper tools for all.

  • #625911

    Leib5
    Member

    Joseph,

    As someone who learned in yeshiva( BMG included), I can tell you there can be only three instances where halocha would require YWN to censor.

    Second instance, if the statements are slanderous and can unnecessarily harm particular individual then too, the statements should not be posted.

  • #625912

    qwerty-

    You raise valid points.

    jent1150-

    I did not do extensive research on your past remarks, because my intent is not to win an argument. The remarks I quoted above were the result of Googling your screen name, and looking at the first few hits.

    I appreciate your responding to my request for correction of my (incorrect) assumptions.

    Please respond to that, as well.

  • #625913

    Joseph
    Member

    Leib5 –

    I hadn’t specified the conditions WHEN the Torah requires censorship. But as you enumerated in you preceding comment, there ARE times when the Torah demands censorship.

  • #625914

    jent1150-

    After rereading my previous post I must apologize.

  • #625915

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” page 2 try..in the meantime we dont see you give tochceh altogether..you side with..”oisvai torah yehallelelu…v’shimorei torah yisgeru bom” you say “comdemnation”, we comdem people? “yitamu chatoim,vlo chotim” br. 10a we point out what we think is against halacha of the issue discussed,mir(ok ,now mr illini07?).and bring reyous,we(mir) maybe wrong but if yes refute with reyous al pi halacha ,gemmorah, not opinions. for you its condemnation.. because the truth hurts so what should we do. so, young man, for pashute elemntary svarah we dont have to run to my rov and ask…(what?t to point out what we said in this post is allowed?are you a immature child that you cant undertand this? that we have to run to my rov and ask?

  • #625916

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try” what can we say, you didnt try hard enough…please tuch up your reading comprihension…we asked “give a SPECIFIC example of each camplain so we can correct or refut not the meaning of those terms now we will give you ONE MORE CHANCE

  • #625917

    favish
    Member

    to “i can only try”…what can i tell you me thinks your a basket case(RE:googeling me ) also you say “more modern..”how should we know who is more modern.there is no pictures posted we are debating what is posted and if we feel its against halacha we state so with reyous from shulchemn urech, gemmorah etc..,we might be wrong, so say so with REYOUS,not OPINIONS.. see our post on this subject (of “opinions” on other posts cant always repeat!!!!(got scared?) ) so we cant run like a little child to my rov for every little thing that is elementary..which seems not to be the case by you..

  • #625918

    ujm
    Member

    Hey Pashuteyid, don’t sneer. torahis1 is a charter member of the YW apikursus club. I remember still from before your time when he and the old (now long gone) Moshe Fox would wave their banner against the YW masses!

  • #625919

    favish
    Member

    to mr pashute yid,page 3,,, you mke it too complicated, give people a break, all it take is to mezalze or to avekmachen a din in shulchen urech…which is very easy…and we dont mean to gebrogts,carry or not carry in eurev which has respected rabbonim on both sides…(and that poster is es medame to dovor haoser l’chol hadaeious..we are talking of rabbonim, not rah-bonim

  • #625920

    jent1150-

    As my screenname says, I can only try.

    Gut Shabbos to all.

  • #625921

    chachom
    Member

    I can only try, I think the point was made previously here, that accusing a “screen name” is NOT akin to accusing a person by name. (You put “screen” in parenthesis, as if there is little difference between that and a real name.) Screen names are anonymous. Both the accuser and the accused. Its all virtual and unreal. In fact, anyone could just change screen names one day, and voila, be a “new” identity.

  • #625922

    willi
    Member

    Please… a little bit of open-mindedness! If someone doesn’t agree with all your shitahs & svaros it doesn’t mean yet that they’re “frei”! I trust YW enough that if posters were truly pro-freikeit, their comments wouldn’t go through so easily. So to those who keep ‘adding names to the list'(of freikeit yidden) please cool it a little.

    Oh- By the way, aren’t you afraid of chapping shlechta hashpaos? By constantly corresponding with apikorsim you can really become negatively influenced.. so watch out. I’m scared for you!

  • #625923

    ZachKessin
    Member

    Can I be part of the “Club”. I have a BA in the hard sciences from a secular university, my father is a professor of biology and an Ivy League school and we talk 3-4 times a week. Oh and I am very much a Zionist.

    Shabbat Shalom, all. I have to get back to work

  • #625926

    illini07
    Member

    ICOT:

    Unfortunately, you may as well stop trying. The hallmark Jent post is rife with a sense of self-superiority, righteousness, and smugness. He knows only how to belittle others, not how to listen, or even attempt civil dialogue.

  • #625927

    Feif Un
    Member

    I just saw this thread, and need to comment. I am pro-freikeit? That’s only because you define someone who isn’t in kollel as being frei.

    But seriously. Why am I considered frei? Because I defend other Jews when the kanaim here attack those who don’t live the same way as them? Because when many people attacked a YU Rosh Yeshiva, I stood up for him? (Which, by the way, my Rosh Yeshiva encouraged me to do. And no, I didn’t learn in YU.)

    Believe me, I am not pro-Frei. I just don’t dislike people based on how they live. If a person wants to be frei, I will try to encourage them to be frum. If they refuse, I can’t help them. But I certainly won’t look down on them for it. Pity them? Yes. But not speak loshon hara about them, and not treat them as lower class. All Jews must be treated with respect, whether they are frum or not.

  • #625928

    jent,

    I find it hysterical that you are calling I can only try a basket case for googling your previous posts. You have many times quoted other people’s posts with links to them – making it seem that you keep a database or an index card file of everyone’s posts for future reference.

  • #625929

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I am not sure whether my earlier posting went through as I pushed a wrong button so allow me to comment on this matter now, albeit a bit late.

    Edc’s qestion is so preposterous that I don’t know why anyone would even take him seriously. Yet,the real danger is in the idea that anyone who does not think like him is FREI ! And, obviously, this would disqaulify such people from even gving an opnion because it is not “daas torah”. Well, it is not edc’s daas torah but it surely is torah.

    There are “shivim ponim latorah” and Rav Kook’s opinions have the same validity as Rav Sonnenfeld’s. The Rav’s (Rav Joshe Ber) writings have as much truth in them as Rav Shach’s and (here I will get into hot water) Rav Adin Steinsaltz translations and persuhim are as authorative as Artscroll’s.

    To claim, as edc does, that anyone offering different opinions is “frei” or that these opinions are “frei’ is an insult to hundreds and thousands of shmorei torah and banishes two thirds of of our yidden into a ghetto. It has been tired before, like the Gro trying to ban chassidus, and it has failed. So will this irresponsible try to cast out shomrei torah umitzvos.

  • #625932

    Pashuteh Yid,

    rabbiofberlin reminded me that you left out an important requirement for joining the club – you gotta learn with Steinsaltz’s version of the talmud.

  • #625933

    Feif Un
    Member

    It’s 100% true!!! Go to Israel, where some extremists will attack women who aren’t dressed the way they want them to be. They will pour bleach on them! You go crazy about how the Muslims are animals when they attack their women – these people are doing the same thing!

    The fact is, Jews are capable of doing terrible things just like anyone else. Saying so is not pro-frei – it’s reality.

  • #625934

    lgbg
    Member

    illini07, rabbiofberlin, sammygol, cantoresq, Pashuteh, NeveAliza, Feif Un, lesschumras

    do you guys realize how popular you are!?

    around 60 comments fighting if you should be allowed to write on YW!

  • #625935

    favish
    Member

    to charlie brown page 4..so who said im not a basket case(, but any way tha only link we have is YWN and whaen we have to remind someone what he said we go to that date and link it (in the search box .top left…)

  • #625936

    illini07
    Member

    lgbg:

    I am beaming. This thread has simultaneously made me laugh, cry, and realize that not everyone who posts here is nuts.

    I think a YWN readers shabbaton is in order.

  • #625937

    Bogen
    Member

    lgbg,

    Not to bust anyones bubble, but what relevance is popularity? Bin Laden is quite popular amongst some groups.

  • #625938

    willi
    Member

    hey lgbg- you left out my name! Although I wasn’t on the original list by edc, I sure was added by Jent!

  • #625939

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Now, Lgbg, I am only popular because I made all the cholent for your Sheva Brachos. Please post a video here of everybody eating it.

  • #625940

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Charlie Brown, I once heard from somebody who worked on the Artscroll gemara or heard the story that he walked into the office where they were writing or editing, and guess what was open on the desk, a Steinsaltz gemara.

    (If this is true, I certainly hope that they gave proper attribution.)

    (BTW, how else would yeshivishe guys know where to put the dots in the Aramaic?)

  • #625941

    lgbg
    Member

    illi.

    happy i made you beam:) and i think a shabbton would be great…. so nu go and arrange it!

    willi

    sorry you werent on the main list… but i guess your included

    pashute yid.

    seriously we still have one day open for a sheva brachos.!

  • #625942

    ujm
    Member

    Baruch Hashem for the great display of Ahavas Yisroel and intellectual honesty by YW that they even allow posts by Jews so far off the derech that they openly and brazenly congratulate each other on who is the biggest (self) Sonei Yisroel!

    (Now no one can say that the (self) anti-semites are denied a forum in the Yeshivish community where they can make their boneheaded arguments and be disproven on the merits.)

  • #625943

    cantoresq
    Member

    I’ve held off posting on this thread for a while, but I’d like to add my two cents, considerng that I am one of those lsited in the first post on the permisability of reading my posts or of me posintg in this site. I’ll ask my own question, what is a permissable question to be asked in a beis midrash? Is there any field of inquiry which is taboo to Torah learning?

    Judaism is G-d’s gift and guide to the world because the anwer to that question is a resounding “NO!!!” There is nothing that cannot be raised in the context of honest Torah inquiry. There is no field of intelelctual endeavor to be avoided in the Beth Midrash. I forget the pariculars of the story, but I recall that when the students of a certain Amora were caught spying on the most intimate of their rebbe’s acts, they unashamedly retorted “torah hi ul’lelilmod ani tzarich.” And the dsicussion ended there. The lesson? G-d loves honest inquiry. Nothing is so sacred that it is exempt from dissection and analysis. Either the injunction of “Haphoch bo v’haphoch bo d’kula bo” is a mantra for life, or Judaism is nothing.

    Permit me another question. What is the function of this site? Is it merely to reinforce the pre-approved assumptions people bring with them, or is it to serve a higher purpose? Are people ehre interested in learning something new, or in just rehashing the stale and well known? “Harbei lamad’ti. . .U’mtalmidai yoter m’kulam.” How can it be that a sage learns the most from his students? The answer is because the students are innocent, naive perhaps. They do not make the same assumptions about the “Torah way” or about world their teacher does. They therefore offer a fresh, perhaps unexamiend perspective on the subject matter at hand. I prouldy stand before all of you as your “student.” At the same time I humbly thank and beseech you for the opportunity to remain mine.

  • #625944

    favish
    Member

    to feif un..page 4…not, not because of just 1 or 2 posts , but your general comments all over way back…

  • #625946

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Amidst all the comments on this matter, funny and otherwise, the most distressing one are what “ujm” ,and people of his thinking, wrote. To call hundreds of thousands of Yidden “Sonei Yisroel” and “anti-semites” is not only a deep insult and first class rechilus but illuminates the reason why so many Orthodox Jews are disgusted and fed up with the ultra-chareidi view of Yiddishkeit, namely that there is no other Yiddishkeit in the world save the ultra- narrow, insular, elitist Lithuanian yeshivish world. This is not the view of the Chassidim or Chabad or the baal teshuva movement. It is the view of a very small, arrogant band of Jews and has infected us all and has direct consequences in all matters of halacha. (see the fight about giyur).

    I havwe never seen any of the “other” Yidden call the yeshivish world “anti-semite” or “sonei Yisroel”, because we all feel that every Jew is a good jew. If you learned Perek yesterday, you will have learned the first mishna in “Chelek” and know what our chachomim thought about every Yid.

  • #625947

    Joseph
    Member

    cantoresq,

    To your credit, you are the first responder in this thread to substantively address the point the poster made.

    But I think the area that you missed is that his point was not that you are not entitled to make any halachic point or counterpoint as in a Beis Medrash setting. That is surely a given. The point was that comments that are heresy, sacrilegious, kefira or attack elements of the Torah, are beyond the pale in the Beis Medrash or outside, and thus unacceptable.

    That is the theoretical discussion (or as a barrister, the point of law not the factual findings.) Now whether you indeed made such heretical comments is a factual matter.

  • #625948

    illini07
    Member

    UJM:

    anti-semites? You’re REALLY going to go there? If anyone is a sonei Yisroel right now, it is you, my friend.

  • #625949

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant
  • #625950

    cantoresq
    Member

    josephf:

    I think you are wrong regarding what’s “fair game” in the Beth Midrash. Look for example to the sugya of zaken mamre. One does not become a zaken mamre for espousing a divergent point of view. Indeed even after the consensus is established contra to that divergent point of view, one is not obligated to revise his thinking on the subejct. One is a zaken mamre only and only if he paskens l’maaseh against the consensus. I also point out that in the famous (and often misunderstood) sugya of “Tanur Achinai” HKB”H proclaims: “Nitzchuni banai. . .” But there is no record that R. ELiezer ever conceded the point.

  • #625951

    To Josephf

    A Rayah to you from 23B Bava Basra Tosfos D”H V’al, that some questions are unacceptable, especially when they deal with emunas chachomim.

    However, I would not classify R’ Yirmiah as “pro-freikeit” or a Rasha (C”V)! Everyone makes mistakes, and it is up to THEIR rabbonim to decide if they did something wrong and how to give tochacha.

    I don’t think it is possible for every poster to prove they have an OK for each post from THEIR rav (whether from A”Y, Lakewood, Phoenix or Timbuktu), so a possible solution is to have an approved YWN rav moderate. He can also screen out posts that are

    inappropriate for other reasons (name your pick).

  • #625952

    Pashute Yid,

    I highly doubt that artscroll story. They are smart enough not to copy from another source without attribution and permission. That would make them look foolish and possible open themselves up to a copyright infringement lawsuit.

    I haven’t looked inside an artscroll gemara to see if they do attribute to steinsalz because I don’t own an artscroll gemara, but I highly doubt they would have legitimized him by doing that.

    By the way do you own a large fleet of cars? I’ve been seeing a lot of bumper stickers lately with the phrase “I’m a pashuter yid” 😉

  • #625953

    Feif Un
    Member

    jent: care to post links to some of them?

  • #625954

    Chacham
    Participant

    b`emes the only people to have a voice are people who never went on the internet in their life

  • #625955

    Joseph
    Member

    cantoresq et al,

    Do you take the position that someone making a comment that “the Rabbonim are crooks”, “the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” should be tolerated and posted?

  • #625956

    Feif Un
    Member

    joseph: No, I don’t think Rabbonim are crooks. I don’t think you should take the Torah with a grain of salt, and when it comes to Shabbos, of course you should try and keep every aspect of it.

    There’s a difference between saying the Torah didn’t mean something specific, especially when you have a Rav to quote on it, and saying you don’t have to follow the Torah. One questions the interpretation, the other questions the validity. See the difference?

    Regarding Shabbos, I made my position clear: of course everyone should try and keep Shabbos. However, you can’t force someone else to keep it, or any other halachah. People have to choose to keep it, not have it forced on them.

    As for insulting Rabbonim, I’m sorry, but I’ve seen many supposedly frum people insult many Rabbonim. Look at the Rabbi Tendler comments for that. I don’t think I’ve ever insulted Rabbonim anywhere on this site. if I did, please point it out to me.

  • #625957

    Joseph
    Member

    Feif Un, They were general examples (in response to cantoresq) and not specific quotes. My point was theoretical.

    BTW, a serial mechallel shabbos could be forced by beis din to keep Shabbos. The same with any halacha.

  • #625958

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Charlie Brown, I don’t give that mayseh too much credence, either, but just repeating what I heard a long time ago.

    As far as fleet of cars, as you can see, I have a large fan club (despite the fact that the kannaim want to throw me off YW). Just kidding.

    JosephF, Believe it or not, life is full of compromises, and in fact nobody can possibly be midakdek on every nuance, which is why it is all a questions of priorities and emphasis. Let me give you an example. If you have children, and you will make them Bar-Mitzvahs, IY”H you will want to buy a pair of tefillin. But if you want to get absolutely the best around, you will find that it probably costs about 5,000 a pair (and may have to order 2 years in advance). So maybe you should spend it on the tefillin. But you may then find yourself short of money to pay his tuition. So if it is a choice of a $1500 pair, and sending him to yeshiva, or a $5000 pair and no yeshiva, you will probably go for the 1500 pair. However, you will be giving up some of the “nooks and crannies to a tee” of hilchos tefilin.

    The gemara itself states that their are 3 aveiros that a person violates every day. However, if he did not interact with people at all, and stayed in a locked room, he could probably avoid the hirhurei aveirah and avak loshon hora. However, that would be at the expense of getting out to go to shul and to make a parnasah, etc., and to have a family.

    Similarly, giving tzedakah is a huge mitzvah, but so is buying food for Shabbos. How do you do both if money is short, and you also have a tuition bill due, etc. What if there is an old lady who needs help, but you are on the way to tefilah btzibbur, you can only do one mitzvah now. Which do you do?.

    So life is full of choices, and it is impossible to keep every mitzva fully. You may be living in a fantasy world, thinking it is possible, and probably some of the younger yeshiva bochurim who are the kannaim here (I believe) think the same thing, because they are still young and idealistic and inexperienced. But lmaysah, it is impossible.

    Given these facts, one must make some choices. I personally have chosen ahavas yisroel of all types, loshon hora, and anivus to be my big 3. A big Rov once said that the biggest conflicts in life are between two good things. So if I get into a situation where another mitzva, as great as it might be, (say tochacha) might want me to hurt the feelings of another yid, I will pass, since it goes against my big 3. The only people I give tochacha to are my own kids, since they know I love them. A stranger on the street will likely think I have an ego problem and not listen, and be turned off.

    I personally weigh the bein adam lchaveiro mitzvos more than the bein odom lamakom mitzvos, and feel that I have many many solid sources to do so, such as the gemara that says yimacheh Shmo al hamayim kdei laasos shalom bein ish l’ishto. Vahavta lreacha komocha say klal godol batorah. Mai dsanei oloch lchavreich lo saavid, zeh lol hatorah kula. Also look at last Rashi in Parshas Yisro which says that the kovod due to a human is greater than the kovod due to the Beis Hamikdash. I believe that the RBSH deeply wants us to honor our fellow man, and that it gives him great nachas ruach.

    These are the choices I have made. You are entitled to make yours. But if you really believe that you will be able to do every mitzvah perfectly, I don’t think you are being honest. Choose wisely, and be consistent.

    Let me conclude with a vort. Mi haish hachofetz chaim ohev yomim liros tov. Netzor leshoncha mera… What does it mean liros tov, to see good things? I think pshat is to see the good in others. If you want a long life to see all the gevaldige things that others do, then the way to see this good is to refrain from loshon hora. If you get into the habit of never even thinking bad about any yid, it is very easy never to say bad about any yid. And this will cause you to see the Tov in every yid, and you will be amazed at what they have accomplished.

  • #625959

    cantoresq
    Member

    cantoresq et al,

    Do you take the position that someone making a comment that “the Rabbonim are crooks”, “the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” should be tolerated and posted?

    Posted 48 minutes ago #

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    That all depends on the context of the statement regarding the rabbis. If it’s in the context of discussing those rabbis who have been convicted of criminal activity, then calling them “crooks” might very well be a legitimate statement. Regarding taking the Torah with a grain of salt, arguably, Chazal did just that in many instances (at least according to certain readings of certain passages in the Talmud). So again depending on the context it might be legitimate to say that. Regarding Shabbat observance, again it depends on the context. Are we referring to d’Oraita precepts or d’Rabanans? After all each is treated differently. I can think of instances where one might say that Shabbat need not be observed b’chol dikdukeah u’peruteah. Granted those are very exceptional circumstances ala the idea of “chaleil Shabbat achat k’dei sh’tishmor Shabbatot acheirot.” or within the realm of Hilchot shtadlanut (remember the famous Shabbat in the 1940’s when R. Kalmanowitz drove in a car from schul to schul making an appeal for the va’ad Hatzalah. He felt that the issue was importnat enough to break Shabbat.) but they do exist. The issue is not the statement. the issue is the context and the basis for the statement.

  • #625960

    lesschumras
    Participant

    to joseph,

    Of all the people cited eligible for banning, I don’t recall anyone saying

    “the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” ? Where there is room for discussion is what that “tee” is ( i.e. shitel only or with a hat, eruv or no eruv, chalav stam or CY )

    But what I have noticed , as Feif Un did, that there is no shortage of posters insulting non-chareidi Rabbonim that they don’t agree with. Should they be banned too?

  • #625961

    favish
    Member

    to illini07 page3..to late, your posts are there for all to see…”v’cholmasaycha b’sayfer nichtiovim”…now again…its not what you wrote or not, l’gabay halach we pointed out there a few times..WHEN IT COMES TO OIVREI AVAIRA. KOCH TO BURIED IN .., BLIND REFORM (WHATEVER THAT MEANS) CLERIC, REFORM (WHATEVER…) SUPPORTS LOCAL IMMAN (not going to bother to post links the 3 here are more than enough, you jump on the bandwagon and you are malamed zechus with al kinDS of divrei doife…but when ehrliche shomer torah yidden and at that time we didnt even know who did it (“crown heights man assulted”” you have the gall to say jews are JUST, YOU HEAR WHAT YOU SAID, JUST!! as capable,(and of course you meant ehrliche “ghetto jews, not like you friend the blind ..cleric etc.. )so this gave you away beyond shadow of doubt that you hate ehrliche shomreu torah unmitzvos yidden so what you haking a chinik that i am self righteous,holier than thou so, yes good, so i am, that doesnt absolve you and now stop crying that we bring those links,you should have thought of consequenses before posting…so all you gemmoros all you toirehs has nothing to do ..

  • #625962

    Joseph
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid –

    Your examples are “compromises” of hiddurs, that if you can’t do (i.e. afford the nicest Esrog) you have no such obligation. THERE IS NO COMPROMISING OF HALACHA.

    cantoresq –

    Your comment is so far beyond the pale of Torah Judaism, it is hardly worthy of a response. Nevertheless anyone that claims, as you did, that you can EVER “take the Torah with a grain of salt” is, I’m sorry to have to tell you, a Koifer gomer. The Torah is 100% EMES. EVERY LETTER IN THE TORAH IS 100% TRUTH.

  • #625963

    illini07
    Member

    Jent, your logic leaves a lot to be desired. Nothing you have said is anywhere near conclusive proof that I “hate erliche yidden.”

  • #625964

    cantoresq
    Member

    josephf

    What of the sugya of “yesh koach b’yad chachamim LA’AKOR din min hatorah. . .” The issue discussed there was not CAN Chazal abrogate laws from the torah, but rather under what circumstances. So while I’m sure that it’s very comforting to repeat frum platitudes about each and every word in the Torah being “100% truth” (which incidentally I never denied), it really is beside the point.

  • #625965

    favish
    Member

    to joseph page5…will link again this article see cantors posts #24 and on. and then they cry we call everyone koifer, we have diffront OPINION(sic) and the whole pshetel. also you had asked him this page if torah grain of salt etc, we asked him same way back if he holds every din in shulchen urech binding, untill this day coudlnt figure out his weasling out of question …looking for it, will im’yhs find and post it Link

  • #625966

    cantoresq
    Member

    Josephf:

    appropos to my post about “yesh koach” What is your understanding of Chazal’s statements about negah habayit, ben sorer umoreh, ir hanidachat, (about each they say “lo haya v’lo yihyeh”)? Regarding the death penalty can you not see the possibility that Chazal, being opposed to it, legislated it away? Don’t forget R. Akiva’s famous statement that were he on the Sanhedrin, he would have insured that no one would ever be executed for any crime. Was R. Akiva a “Koifer gomer?” since he seemingly put his love for humanity before the Torah’s injunction to invoke the death penalty where It mandates capital punishment?

  • #625967

    Feif Un
    Member

    jent, I asked you to provide links to posts I made which fit your criteria, and you haven’t yet. Having trouble finding some?

    As for illini’s posts, you keep bringing up the same one: that he said Jews are just as capable of carrying out violent attacks. He’s right! Even though we all agree the acid throwers are a fringe element, they’re still Jews, and are capable of doing these horrible things. As Jews, we’re expected to show more control over ourselves, but that doesn’t mean we’re not capable. Look at the attacks many people here made against the early Zionists, about many of the things they did during WW2. They were Jews also! And they were perfectly capable of doing these things!

  • #625968

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Josephf, are you really giving yourself a pat on the back, and announcing that you have kept every halacha perfectly to a tee your entire life? I would be honored to meet someone of such high caliber. Someone perfect is ideally suited to give tochacha.

    One additional reason why I never do, is I am always thinking that I have so many chesronos, that who in the world am I to tell somebody else how to act and keep mitzvos. What kind of a hypocrite would I be to tell someone he is doing something wrong when I have so many things I need to work on.

    I never realized there were perfect individuals in the world, and lo and behold, right here on YW. I am sorry I am actually giving you tochacha, but the one exception is when I see someone hurting somebody else. Your constant put-downs of other people are unacceptable. Same with the other kanaim here. Any unbiased person reading this blog will automatically come to the conclusion that the kannaim are the ones who always start with the personal insults. You see, the acid throwing doesn’t just come from the fringes, as some have claimed. First the kannaim throw acid with their words. Then they use their fists on buses. Then the next madreiga is to throw real acid. But it is really all the same thing. It is just a matter of degree. When one’s midos are out of control, there is no telling what he is capable of doing.

    Did you know that the kannaim once pushed Reb Aryeh Levin into the mud?

    Did you know that in Beit Shemesh, Shmuel Katz in the FIve TOwns Jewish Times reports that on erev shabbos the kannaim throw debris and rocks into the roads so vehicles can’t get through? What if an ambulance needs to get by?

    And they actually think that the RBSH is proud of them.

  • #625969

    Joseph
    Member

    Pashuteh –

    The glass house bit, you are alluding to, is a non-Jewish concept. You are trying to deduce that it is improper for ANYONE to correct anyone else, “since no one is perfect.” In Torah Judaism, a Yid is OBLIGATED to give tochacha. You, like so many other mitzvos, would like that repealed and reformed.

    If Judaism ever finished reforming itself to your specifications, there would be nothing left of it. In fact, the “Reform” and “Conservative” movements are just that.

    Yes, yes, I know, how dare you be corrected. How “kanaish.”

  • #625970

    ujm
    Member

    Pushut, Who are YOU to go against SHULCHAN ORACH and call anyone in your way kanaim? What azus! What chutzpa! What rishus!

    (Yes, if you want to know where you went against shulchan orach reread your words in this section. Any reasonable ben torah can see it.)

  • #625971

    Bogen
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid You mustn’t be Mr. Perfect to give tochacha. Otherwise no one would ever give anyone tochacha, and the whole idea of tochacha would be meaningless.

  • #625974

    mdlevine
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid

    you wrote:

    “…are you really giving yourself a pat on the back, and announcing that you have kept every halacha perfectly to a tee your entire life? I would be honored to meet someone of such high caliber. Someone perfect is ideally suited to give tochacha”

    this could be applied to another frequent poster and all his “talmudic like” references to other posts to bring his “proofs”

    I hate to be the one to be the bearer of bad news to you, but these guys (gedolim and complete tzaddikim in their view) sadly fall short due to bitul Torah. I am posting this as a frequent poster to Yeshiva World (and not (yet) named on the “to be banned” list nor on the list of those naming names of who should be banned), so I am also guilty of bitul Torah, as they are. one can not reach the level of perfection while involved in bitul Torah.

    So, these guys can claim that they are the Pincus of today rooting out the evil amongst us, however, 1) Pincus asked a question of the Gadol haDor before acting – and we see the approval and 2) Pincus went to get his spear (the following is from a tape I heard from R’M.M. Weiss) – meaning he was not carrying it with him. in other words, he wasn’t looking for a situation to rise to the level of hero, but when he saw what needed to be done and was very much aware of the Halacha, he first asked, then he got his spear to react.

    I do not think that this is what is happening here. Not sure, but I doubt that a Gadol was asked about responding to perceived inappropriate remarks and I am not sure if the reading is not with the intent to respond as opposed to just reading and then having to respond.

  • #625975

    willi
    Member

    ujm – why use such harsh language?

  • #625976

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Joseph, UJM, Qwerty,

    Please look at Sotah 21b. Heichi dami chosid shoteh? Rav Zerika amar Rav Huna zeh hamaikil l’atzmo umachmir l’acheirim. (One who is lenient with himself but strict on others.) Also see Rashi on Rav Yosef bar Chama amar Rav Sheshes zeh hamachria acheirim b’orchosov.

    So it is absolutely clear that one who gives tochacha on an area in which he is lax in is a chosid shoteh which today we would call a hypocrite, and it would seem, therefore, that he is patur from the mitzva of tochacha. So the concept of people in glass houses is indeed a yiddishe concept.

    For this reason, I exempt myself from tochacha, since I don’t trust myself to be on the level to criticize others.

    UJM, could you kindly cite where I advocated going against Shulchan Oruch?

    As far as my remarks about the tznius asifah, I apologize and will try to ask mechila from the gedolim involved, since some may have interpreted my remarks to be against them.

    In fact, my astonishment was how Lakewood which is the citadel of Torah, could be considered lax in tznius? It would be like saying the NY Yankees should practice hitting from a Tee-Ball to learn how to properly hold a bat. Or like telling Isaac Stern he is not holding his violin right, or like saying the people in Harvard are getting lax in long-division. How is it possible that in Lakewood they are lax? Nobody has thus far given me any explanation on what they are lax in.

    As far as the Nun joke is concerned, think of it mathematically. Currently, the people in Lakewood are covering X square inches. The Rabbonim would like them to increase to Y square inches. But how much difference is there between Y and Z square inches where Z is the number that are covered by a Nun. Since the current dress custom is X which is already presumably a very high number, if you go up much further you must automatically end up at Z. There is simply physically not that much room between Y and Z.

    Another point, Reb SHmuel doesn’t live in Lakewood, so he must be relying on info told him by others of any purported problem. But didn’t we have disastrous results the last time that happened when certain kannaim gave misleading info to the gedolim about the concert ban. Both Reb Shmuel and Rav Belsky needed to later independently qualify their positions, with Rav Belsky even using the term forgery of his signature, I believe. I simply don’t trust kannaim.

  • #625977

    Bogen
    Member

    mdlevine:

    I think you are wrong, and here is why. Firstly, like you correctly indicate, kanuis has its place and who are we simpletons to judge if someone is a kosher kanuy like Pinchus?

    But the thing I must disagree with you is, that any comment on this blog could constitute ‘kanuis.’ Kanuis must constitute an action, not a blog comment. The negatively throwing around the term and calling anyone you disagree with a kanuy, is grossly overabused to the point it loses all meaning.

    Now what a comment could constitute, is tochahcha. And unless you think the person cannot be influenced for the better, tochacha is a good thing.

  • #625981

    The Big One
    Member

    Please, please, can everyone make up and be b’shalom? Pashuteh Yid, jent1150, mdlevine, josephf, Feif Un, illini07. Please????

  • #625982

    cantoresq
    Member

    Pashuteh –

    The glass house bit, you are alluding to, is a non-Jewish concept. You are trying to deduce that it is improper for ANYONE to correct anyone else, “since no one is perfect.” In Torah Judaism, a Yid is OBLIGATED to give tochacha. You, like so many other mitzvos, would like that repealed and reformed.

    If Judaism ever finished reforming itself to your specifications, there would be nothing left of it. In fact, the “Reform” and “Conservative” movements are just that.

    Yes, yes, I know, how dare you be corrected. How “kanaish.”

    Posted 19 hours ago #

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Actually, Joseph, in the Iggrot Chazon Ish, he cautions us against giving tochachah in our (i.e his generation) since it will proboably not have the desired affect, but rather the opposite one. The Chazzon Ish actually recommends against it.Additionally, in hsi Darchei haHora’ah, the Maharitz Chajes brings literally scores of examples where the nosei keilim to the Shulchan Arukh and other poskim describe a widely accepted abberant practice but then decide to do nothing about it based on “mutav sheyihiu shoggegin velo meizidin.” When, if and how to give tochachah seems not to be as simple as you seem to think.

  • #625983

    Feif Un
    Member

    Again, I ask: I was listed in the first post, and have been accused again since of being “pro freikeit”. Can someone please quote something I posted which indicates this? If not, I demand an apology from all those who spoke lashon hara and motzei shem ra about me.

    Be aware that the halacha is that a person has no chiyuv to forgive someone who speaks lashon hara about him until he is asked for forgiveness, and the penalties for lashon hara are very harsh.

    Actually, regardless of whether you can show some proof or not, it’s probably still lashon hara, and you should ask mechila.

  • #625984

    The Big One
    Member

    Feif Un,

    How could anyone have said loshon hora or have been motzei shem ra you????

    Said loshon hora or been motzei shem ra on Mr. Un? I mean, no one knows who you are (or the posters for that matter); you go by some quacky screen name; so who exactly is it being said against???

    You can’t say loshon hora or be motzei shem ra on ANONYMOUS (or some fake name)!!!

  • #625985

    Feif Un
    Member

    The Big One: How do you know that nobody knows my screen name here? I happen to have friends who do know my name, and with the posts attacking me, they may have read lashon hara or motzei shem ra about me. So, now, not only do these posters have to ask mechilah from me, they have to ask mechilah from all those who may have recognized my screen name for making them read the lashon hara!

  • #625987

    Feif Un
    Member

    It’s amazing how when I point out that nobody can back up what they accuse me of, they’re suddenly quiet. Well, remember, Rosh Hashanah is just 2 months away. You have until then to ask for forgiveness.

  • #625988

    The Big One
    Member
  • #625989

    illini07
    Member

    Feif Un, I feel you on this one. I ask and all I get pointed out to me is a simple factual statement about the humanity and fallibility of Jews…

  • #625990

    noitallmr
    Member

    GUYS…is this an appropaite preperation for Elul???

    This coffee room thing just started lets not give the YW editor already a reason to shut it…everyone take a chill pill and just calm down.

  • #625991

    NOTHING LIKE SOME GOOD CONTROVERSEY TO BE MIKAREV THE GEULAH. SICKENING!

  • #625992

    Think BIG
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid:

    It seems to me that this is not really about tochahcha at all. #1 I doubt these people bashing you really care about you so much to want to help you improve (which I think is a prerequisite for giving tochacha –correct me if I’m wrong on this one guys) #2 If they really sincerely want to fulfill the mitzvah of Hocheach Tochiach, they probably would word themselves very differently.

    Rather, I think this is more an issue of kanaus if anything. These people, who are so steeped in Yiras Shomayim and Limud Hatorah and Ahavas Hashem, just can’t bear to read words that display crooked ideas (in their view) against Hashem and His Torah, and therefor they feel a need to protest, lmaan hashem.

    It reminds me of a story I once heard in the name of one of the Gedolim. He was asked why when a secular Jew drives his car on Shabbos do people scream “shabbos!” at him. What does it help? Will it stop him from doing it next time?

    He replied that when a child falls and hurts himself, he cries. Why? Does it help? No, but “ven es tut vei, veint men!” When it hurts you cry.

    That’s real kanaus. I don’t know if this is the real thing or not, but in one of your posts you advocated the Rabbonim making an asifa and banning all kanaus. The “kanaim” you describe (the acid throwers) are indeed a fringe element and what they do goes against the Torah l’chol hadayos. But think about it, will they stop doing these things if an asifa were held about it?? The asifa would simply be a waste of time because these thigs do not apply to normal people.

    But then there are some special individuals who are real kanaim, who see a major chillul hashem, and get up there and protest it, sometimes at great risk to themselves. I heard recently in the name of R’ Ephrayim Wachsman that when the b’nos moav were infilterating klal isroel and causing the men to sin, and the whole story of Zimri’s brazen act transpired, no one knew what to do. All the yidden stood around crying, helpless. Only Pinchas got up there and knew what to do. He did the right thing (risking his life in the process) killed Zimri, and thereby stopped the plague.

    Hashem later said that if not for Pinchas’s act of kanaus He would have detroyed all of Klal Yisroel.

    (Pinchas took his spear -“Romach”- to do this deed [which we would say today was an act of VIOLENCE] , which brought about “Rachem”, [transpose the letters] mercy from Hashem, as this saved Klal Yisroel.)

    Today , says R’ wachsman, we have a simlar situation of imorality going on, and we all stand around helpless, not knowing what to do, crying. But here and there we have a kanai like Pinchas who gets up there and knows what to do, and that is what will save us. Ban kanaus? I think not. But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means, being zealous for Hashem and the Torah, not for any personal reasons.

  • #625993

    cantoresq
    Member

    Let me join in with my frustration. I’ve demonstrated how my thinking is based on sugyot in Shas. No one has responded. Let’s all remember the principle of “shtikah k’hoda’ah dami”

  • #625994

    The Big One
    Member

    Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.

    No hats or jackets required during prayers. Any man going by the title Rabbi must be respected to make converts. Relaxed tznius standards. Hallel on Israel independence day.

    Now why didn’t one of you think of that until now?

  • #625995

    Zalman
    Member

    I think the aforementioned posters on this thread are like tinuk shenishba and should be pitied as such and not harshly criticized.

  • #625996

    Think BIG
    Member

    Big one, if they do that, who will all the kana’im argue with?

  • #625997

    Bowzer
    Participant

    Any one who shooses to get his news here is doing so cuz he wants shmiras aynayim and to get the news from a frum ayin. So that’s a zechus to all these bloggers.

    As I am following this thread, I want to call everyone’s attention to something. All of us who “fight ” against this chevera in this thread or other places. We (including MYSELF) have mentioned the we must follow the Rabonim. It just hit me- that that (including MYSELF) is very hypocritical. I don’t think any of “our” charedi rabbonim whould approve of me doing what I am doing right now on a web site that I don’t need for work!!!

    So. . . I am going to try (it is addictive and intresting especially at my boring job) to break this “bad” habit and I invite all of you to join with me!

    (of course I’ll have to peek back in this coffe room to find out if anyone reacted to my post. . . just once maybe)

  • #625998

    Feif Un
    Member

    The Big one, nobody said you shouldn’t wear a hat and jacket during davening. All they (and I) said was that to say someone without a hat and jacket isn’t a yorei shamayim and doens’t have kavanah is just stupidity. How do you know the level of someone’s kavanah, or yiras shamayim?

  • #625999

    cantoresq
    Member

    The Big One said:

    Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Those thre sentances aptly sum up the supercilious truculence of Chareidi thinking. Despite Chazal telling us “Yesh harbei panim l’Torah” as far as they are concerned, their way is the ONLY “Torah-centered community” that counts. It is due to that mindset that klal Yisrael will never achieve anything approaching unity.

  • #626000

    Chuck Schwab
    Member

    The Big One: They’re afraid their rejected ideas would attract only the lowest elements.

  • #626001

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, “the big one” has a good idea. But then, if you’d stay on this site, where would you and others go to find the truth? I mean, you could not log on to the “other” site, in case your mind gets polluted!

  • #626002

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Think Big:

    As I have quoted the Chazon Ish in Hilchos shechita, and as others have quoted what are probably similar views of his from his other writings, today we must talk gently, as they will interpret harsh speech as violence, (which implies al achas kamah vkamah that violence itself is forbidden. The Chazon Ish says that the halachos of moridin vlo maalin only apply at a time when hasgachas HKBH geluyah l’ein kol. (When hashem’s providence and control of the world are apparent to all. In those times, aveiros were clear cut rebellion.

    But the Chazon Ish provides no makor and no hesber on this statement. Let me offer a hesber. The Rambam says that before a navi is believed to be a navi, he must authenticate himself. That means he must be tested and pass. The test is that he must make predictions and mofsim that come true exactly as he said. The Rambam says this can be done multiple times if we are not convinced. We can give him more tests. (He says we should not overdo it, but he doesn’t seem to say a specific number of times.)

    After a person has been shown that this navi actually says the word of hashem, he must obey. However, in our generation, we have no nevuah, and therefore if you go over to a frei yid and tell him he must keep shabbos and start screaming at him, his first question will be why should I believe you that you are right. Even if you throw around all the names of all the biggest gedolim who say to keep shabbos, his response will be a) I never heard of them, or b) who said they are right.

    And you know what? he has every right to do so. Why should he believe some stranger on the street who is screaming at him? If you are prepared to make a mofes for him or predict the future, then please do so. If you are unable to do so, you have no right to scream or hit. Pinchas only applied in a totally different generation. In today’s generation, the only way to get somebody to keep shabbos is by gentle motivation and teaching by example.

    Maybe this is pshat in the Chazon Ish.

  • #626004

    Feif Un
    Member

    The Big One, you just showed one of the main reasons why Moshiach hasn’t come yet. When you disagree with someone, you just tell them to go somewhere else, by themselves. This is not the Jewish way! You must love every Jew whether they agree with you or not.

    “Your modern beliefs”? Like what? Defending R’ Tendler from a bunch of people who are determined to speak lashon hara and motzei shem ra about him? Or saying that you can daven without a hat and jacket and still be a yarei shamayim? Or maybe it was illini’s post, that Jews are capable of doing bad things? (That one takes the cake, by the way – some said he was 100% wrong, that Jews aren’t even capable of such things, yet you blast the early Zionists for doing just those things.) What “modern beliefs” are you talking about?

  • #626005

    favish
    Member

    to caantor esg..page 7 ..we have mentioned to you on other article to your comment above ..that there is ‘harbe panim l’torah’ and there is a ‘megaleh panim l’torah’, you are from the latter as we have pointed out from your postings all over see there..

  • #626006

    Think BIG
    Member

    Poshut Yid:

    Either you misunderstood me or i misunderstand you.

    In my earlier post, all I was doing was differentiating between tochacha and kanaus. I said that I doubt anyone on this blog is giving tochacha, but rather i said it came from a sense of kanaus-IF ANYTHING.

    Secondly, moving on to kanaus, By quoting R’ Wachsman, and showing how Pinchas saved the nation with his kanaus, the point was that kanaus might just be the thing we need to save us today. my last line was the key: “But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means (and may i add, WHEN AND HOW TO BE A KANAI) being zealous for hashem and his torah and not for personal reasons. I only took issue with your general statement of “let’s ban kanaus” when kanaus is a very important concept in yiddishkeit.

    But you’ve gone completely off on a tangent with your proof. I agree with you that gentle words are better “divrei chachamim benachas nishmaim). That is quite obvious to anyone and needs no proof. Your example is quite far-fetched, excuse me for saying so. Who exactly in their right mind goes over to a frei person and starts yelling at them to keep shabbos??? Did you ever have such an experience, or can you even conceive of such a scenario? Most people who are into kiruv teach shabbos in a very non-pressuring, loving way. So lets get real about this.

    Lastly, I agree that any frei person has a right to ask for proof, and in fact I think any person, even an ffb may and should ask questions in order to understand. (The main thing is that the questions should come from a place of temimus and sincerity not from rebelliousness). You should realize one reason why there is so much angry give and take on this blog can be because the “kanaim” feel that some people are asking questions or making comments just to mock or belittle, and not because they sincerely wish to learn.(like rabbiof berlin says). Or because they deliberately warp daas Torah. I am sure that if any of the “kanaaim” thought that a question came from a sincere desire to know, they would answer respectfully without antagonism.

    But getting back to the issue at hand, I do think thak that people on this blog should try to temper their words a bit and try not to put people down. On the other side of the coin, other people need to ask themselves if the questions they ask or the comments they make are made in ernestness, and not because they want to bait people, or put down what they hold to be holy and true. And if the answer is “NO” –what are you gaining??

  • #626007

    nameless
    Member

    Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

    Why not?? Why are you so intimidated by people who have questions? Answer them with confidence and dont forget you have the Torah on your side so there is no reason for them to get to you.

    Cantoresque apparantly thinks that because he MIGHT be able to say a nice ‘Shma Koleinu’ on Yom KIPPUR, he is worthy of having Maran Harav Hagodol Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY call him on his cell phone to confirm a story he was involved in because he doubts the credibility of the mesenger(a prominet Rebbetzin)

    Wolfishmusings turned Chamishay Chumsha Torah into Shishei Chumsha Torah. His latest Addition? THE GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS..

    Rabbi of Berlin wants an apology because he thinks I insulted him for BLANTANTLY deeming a story told by someone in the name of Rav Kanievsky a ‘fairy tale’.

    I mean; who are the challengers here exactly?

  • #626008

    nameless
    Member

    sorry, ‘Shisho Chamishe Torah’

  • #626009

    ujm
    Member

    feifun, the comment mentioned examples of modern views i.e. hallel on israel independence, no jackets and hats, etc.

  • #626010

    Feif Un
    Member

    ujm, I never said you should say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut. I am personally very against it. I do think, however, that it is worth recognizing. I believe I said I was in favor of putting up a flag if you’re in Israel.

    As for a hat and jacket, I never said I’m against it. I’m against saying that someone without a hat and jacket obviously isn’t a yaarei shamayim. You don’t know the person at all, yet you’re judging him based on how he dresses?

  • #626011

    Will Hill
    Member

    Think Big,

    Yahser Koach! Zeit gut gezugt.

    Kanaus IS a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. Like everything else, it must be used correctly. And it should be used when necessary.

    The modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with. Thats one way when you know you are on target.

    Tochacha the same thing applies. It is a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. And the modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with.

  • #626012

    favish
    Member

    to will hill and whats wrong with kanoes that they yell kanuous? its mitzvah essay d’oiriese ‘ hochaiach, tochiach’..yes mr working man you’ll come with your secular education…and say ‘let those who are without sin cast the first stone'(see not only do we know the saying ‘holier than thou’ but also this which is worse concept than ‘holier…’even thou according to you we didnt get such a thing as ‘SECULAR EDUCATION’ which we did..

  • #626013

    Think BIG
    Member

    Thank you will Hill, and same to you.

  • #626014

    irhakodesh
    Member

    If you don’t want “opposing views” here then why do you link regular articles on YWN to the coffee room? I am very serious here. That’s how I landed up here. Why not just hang the internet coffee room site up in your ehrleche beis medrash?

    I was very upset when I started reading comments. I always thought that there was a tolerance between yeshivish and chassidish. I guess I was naive! As all of the sides get bashed I wonder is this really how the KBH envisions tochacha? I for one am disillusioned!

  • #626015

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Will Hill, so you are diagreeing with the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita who says the only way to bring back the chilonim is with ropes of ahavah?

    Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.

    The only thing worth being a kanai about today is ahavas yisroel. And lo and behold, if this is done, then there will be more shabbos and more tznius and more learning, and everything else will fall into place.

  • #626016

    Will Hill
    Member

    “Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.”

    PahutehYid, The Reform agree with you that “times have changed” and what “fine in the days of Pinchas” are no longer relevant today.

  • #626017

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, as this is the week of tisha be-av (almost,as according to the sefardim ,there is no shevua shechal bo this year), I shall be very measured and reasonable in my comments.

    to nameless, “bemechilas kevod toroshcho” ( i assume you are a male-apologies if this is a mistake- then it would be “toroseich”), I did not ask for an apology from you (on a different posting)because I “blatantly” called a story about a coma for seventy years a fairy tale. BTW, what does Rav Kaniesky have to do wit this ? As far as I reckon, there is no indication that he confirmed this story ,only that this woman’s non-decomposed state was due to the zechus of “no jealousy”, and on this I said, if there are witnesses that this is indeed the case, then indeed it is the case.

    I called for an apology because you called me a “koifer”, without reason, without any basis and without understanding what that means in terms of motzi shem ra.

    If you think that it is common practice to go around calling people “kofrim” without any reason, then,sadly, you are part of the biryonim of yore and the ultras of today who want to silence any debate by calling names.That is not how our Sages throughout the centuries have acted. See the letters of the “Imrei Emess” , the Gerrer Rebbe zz’l, gave Rav Kook zz’l all the kovod he deserved. I think it is advisable to refraim from callong anyone names and sticking to the debate at hand.

  • #626018

    Will Hill
    Member

    “Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.”

    PashutehYid, that is a statement that I would’ve expected to have emanated from Temple Emanu-El. The Reform too believe the what “was fine in the days of Pinchas” in the Torah are no longer since “Times have changed.”

  • #626020

    mdlevine
    Member

    everybody seems to forget the first thing that Pincus did prior to getting his spear and killing Zimri. First he checked with Da’as Torah. Rashi said thar Pincus went to Moshe and reminded him of he halacha and Moshe told him that being that the halacha was learned (remembered) through Pincus, Pincus should be the one to carry it out.

    The point is that Pincus KNEW the halacha yet he did not act on his own without first checking with Da’as Torah. That is a valuable lesson in zealotry – even if you KNOW that you are right, stop and confirm first. By Pincus, time was of the essence and he still stopped and asked.

  • #626024

    Will Hill
    Member

    mdlevine, do you assume you are the only poster here who asks daas torah first? I think not. (Btw, does your daas torah approve FIRST anything you post? hmm?)

  • #626025

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Will Hill, it was not I who said times have changed, it was the Chazon Ish. As I explained at length earlier, he says that since we have no open hasgacha pratis, we can only use ahavah as a tool of kiruv for chilonim, not anger and violence. Please reread my earlier posts where I gave a hesber, and look up the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita.

  • #626026

    Will Hill
    Member

    PahsutehYid, And like someone mentioned before, Kanuas is a mitzvah essay d’oiriese hochaiach, tochiach. The Chazon Ish was talking on how to be mekarev a Chiloni. People over here are not Chilonim. So when people here dredge up their anti-Torah hashkofos, kanuas is in order.

  • #626027

    mdlevine
    Member

    will hill… I am not equating my posts with Pincus as others here are. I am not attacking all the so called “pro-freikeit” or all the self-proclaimed standard bearers of Torah values. I argue with those that I feel are mistaken and and lend support to those that I feel are correct. I think that I am probably one of the few people that have not been labeled as on either side.

  • #626028

    favish
    Member

    to those who say pinchos asked first…very itelligent observation…so 1)since moshe rabbainu was around ,its ‘b’gader morah halacha bifnai rabbo’, even if the halacha is obvious, 2)how do you compare a ‘dinai nefoshos’,to go admonishing one who posts anti toireh ,malik al divrei chahamim etc.. sometime the am haratzes shown by some posters are..

  • #626029

    ujm
    Member

    So mdlevine, you are neither pro-freikeit nor pro-frumkeit? A middle of the roader you say?

    You know what happens to those in “middle of the road”? They get hit from both sides!

  • #626030

    Think BIG
    Member

    I agree ith mdlevines earlier post that we need our gedolim to guide us on what is the correct approach in kanaus. jent, it wasn’t begeder morah halacha…as we see pinchas was not punished for anything, only praised and rewarded. He went to check with moshe because he knew he learned the halacha from him, so he wondered why Moshe himself was not carrying it out. Anyways, what are you trying to say, that its not true that he asked Moshe? Rashi brings it down, as im sure you know, so what is your point?

    your second point is well taken, but some will argue that embarrasing and degrading others should also be asked of a Rav since when someone shames another its as if he killed him…

  • #626031

    Will Hill
    Member

    When kanuas is required, many Tzadikim bzman hazeh have engaged in kanuas. And kanuas is a mitzvah not only tzadikim must engage in when called for bzman hazeh.

  • #626033

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Jent and Joseph, you have both claimed that the glass houses concept, and he who is without sin should cast first stone are non-jewish. I previously provided a source from Sota about the chossid shoteh who is machmir on others and maikil on himself. Possibly another proof, as well.

    If you believe one who is weak in an area should still be giving mussar to others, then that reminds me of a very funny incident.

    There was a very famous president a while back who did some very infamous things with an intern. A very famous minister was called in to provide mussar and lessons and teachings on how to control the yetzer hara and strengthen the family structure of this president. At the very time this minister was providing these valuable lessons and counseling, the minister was busy with his own “friendship” and was having a child with someone other than his wife. The entire country found this out-and-out hypocracy rather humorous. I would say that Jent and Joseph are probably the only two people in the country who are on the side of this very famous minister. You should both be congratulated for mounting a very spirited defense of the minister. I am sure he would hire you on his PR team. My only request is that I should get a percentage of your fees for making this wonderful shidduch.

  • #626037

    ujm
    Member

    Pashuteh, Your logic in that is so faulty in that comment, it is unworthy of a respectable response.

    And pashuteh, you then wonder why people don’t respect your comments, when you use subtle language to attack others? This is a constant theme of yours.

    I submit that Jesse Jackson, the punk you refer to, is in your league.

  • #626040

    milchig
    Member

    Why should they not be given a voice? The website is called Yeshiva World News..It does not specify what yeshevah you grew up going to or send your kids to.

  • #626042

    ujm
    Member

    milchig,

    Because if they say koiferdik things about the Torah, or say loshon hora, or attack Rabbonim, or a whole host of reasons it may be not allowed to even hear what they say.

  • #626043

    Feif Un
    Member

    ujm, I don’t recall any kefirah written. There was plenty of Loshon hara, but unfortunately, it was written by the people who consider themselves the more frum people, who attacked other people such as myself. (Read the comments on the R’ Tendler news article for more detail on that.)

    I was accused of being pro-freikeit, but nobody could provide one example. I’m still waiting for someone to ask for forgiveness. Rosh Hashana is coming up…

  • #626044

    tzippi
    Member

    Ujm and all, I’ve come to the conclusion that the internet, especially this and similar corners, is the Wild West. We can hope that everyone plays fair but if we’re here (and I’m still quite conflicted about this) we have to accept that not everyone will, and our souls may get sullied. There are many dangers present – not just someone else’s kefirah, but the ease with which *I* can run off at the mouth, or keyboard and hurt or damage someone else. Just an example.

  • #626045

    illini07
    Member

    Feif Un:

    You and me both…

  • #626047

    Don’t I count? Or am I not bad enough?

  • #626048

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    I don’t see any posters here as really porkei oyl malchus shamayim or pro-freiheit; just that some are on the edges of what is within the 4 amois of Torah. And when one of them in particular gets out of line, he rants and raves and demonstrates to those of us who are not on the fringe “ashreinu ma toiv chelkeinu…”

  • #626049

    The Big One
    Member

    GiveMe ABreak,

    I’ve seen worse than you (I think.)

  • #626050

    chachom
    Member

    Since this project began, we have new members that have earned their place on this infamous list. Nominations are now being reopened.

    Votes are being taken on:

    Give me a break

    torahis1 (should’ve been on originally, but thought his MIA status would remain)

    Also, improvement in behavior by the following have earned their place amongst the righteous, and are being considered for withdrawal from this infamy:

    sammygol

  • #626051

    The way it seems on these posts is that anyone to the right of me** is a zealot and going overboard (so much so that they lost the true meaning to the mitzvah) and anyone to the left of me is an apikores…

    **me refering to the average commentator**

  • #626052

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Chacham, The only change in Sammy I have noticed is that he does not post very much.

    Havesomeseichel, nobody has any problem with people who are extremely sincerely frum. The problem is with people who have nothing better to do with their time than to knock others. In the secular world there are people with personality issues who are bullies. In the frum world, sometimes these same types find a great justification by convincing themselves that they are lshem shomayim which they think gives them a license to bully others.

    The greatest midah of all is anivus (humility), which leads directly to ruach hakodesh.

    I know plenty of chareidim who are sincere and eidel and have true ahavas yisroel. These types are quietly learning and growing and probably do not post. Unfortunately, there are a few who use frumkeit as a way of justifying their gayvah issues and give all the rest a bad name. I doubt these phonies are more medakdek bmitzvos than the groups they criticize. It is just noise.

  • #626053

    Pashuteh, Its a maaila if he doesn’t post very much, rather than posting much krumkeit.

  • #626054

    Why aren’t I getting any votes to include me on this wonderful list?

  • #626055

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Givemeabreak, I am sorry but this is an exclusive club and we have far more applicants than we can handle. On page 2 of this thread, I outlined the application process. Only the most outstanding are selected.

    Good luck, and contact us if you need any assistance with the process.

  • #626056

    Pashuteh Yid:

  • #626057

    The Big One
    Member

    Give me a break, He said that in jest.

  • #626058

    qa
    Member

    pashutehyid, isn’t Sammy a she?

  • #626059

    The Big One:

    Duh.

  • #626060

    teenager
    Member

    wow, I originally didnt post on this thread because I was so disgusted by the title but I jsut read through it all and got to say this.

    maybe you should redefine your definition of pro-freikeit, because maybe thats the parts that wrong, not that the people that are being falsly accused can be compared to having goyish idealogy, anybody with an opposing opinon that doesnt fit your little fram is pro-freikeit? you know maybe I should be added to that list, I wrote on the thread I started about kosher hangouts that we should make them co-ed as to help kids.

    I assume most of the posters are adults, some with children, you are the reason us kids go off. Whatever we do is not good enough, we are looked down enough and berated for our actions so why do anything? thats one of the reasons i went off the derech as did other kids I know. We all have different opinions but why cant you have a normal dissagreement without publicly bashing people and ascting like a bunch of animals. I sure hope you havent turned anyone else off, instead off worrying about what the “profreikeit” commeantors have awaiting them in shamayim and analyzing their actions, look at yourself, we all have to.

  • #626061

    noitallmr
    Member

    teenager chill. This is just a discussion…

  • #626062

    GILA
    Member

    i dont think you should tell ppl they r the reason you went off the derech i think its rude and insulting you cant blame anybody for your actions neither can anybody else

  • #626063

    Nobody
    Member

    I seldom put forth my views in reponse to a post and like to remain as my name says a Nobody.

    I have, however given though to this post and am adding my 10 cents worth.

    Pro Freikeit is a strong statement to make and I think it was made without thinking too deeply what this means and the consequences of it. To be pro freikeit implies being anti-religious. Anti religious is not the same as non religious and non religious is relative to the circumstances and people.

    If someone on this site is non religious then surely kind words and not harsh opinions are better served. The mere fact they have logged on to this site and not some other speaks volumes.

    This site has people from all walks of life and who are we to judge anyone. It is better to listen and offer warm words of encouragement than to be judemental which ultimately pushes people away.

    I come across people from different backgrounds and varying degrees of frumkeit. I have learnt never to voice an opinion but to open my heart and ears and listen to the underlying message.

    Someone who has gone off the derech (an expression I don’t like by the way) has not necessarily lost the plot, lost their mind, nor are they necessarily running away from something or someone and we are not to judge their reasons why, as often there is no true logical or analytical explanation. However, we do have to keep our hearts open and to be there when the time comes to pick up the pieces without question.

    My heart and soul goes to those who are crying for help in one way or another and don’t even know it. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better for everyone but I realise that’s not possible. So instead I sit and listen and wait.

    I do not think it is rude or insulting for someone to say why they are no longer frum and there is no reason they should not give a reason on this or any other forum. Maybe they need annonymous non judgmental frum people to hear them out and help them and listen to their cry. Nor has anyone the right to say they have only themselves to blame. That is a strong opinioned statement made rashly without thought.

    I do not expect everyone to agree with what I have said but I would like to think everyone on this site giving their opinions has some maturity to think carefully into what they put into writing. Don’t write for the sake of it. Think first of what your words mean and how they will be taken and the consequences.

    Ultimately we will all need to account to Hashem in the Beis Din Shel Ma’aloh all our words, deeds and actions – just as we’ve just said on Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur. How quick some people forget these holy words. How quick we brush aside what we have davened for and how quick we are to slip down the road of not so nice thoughts, words and actions.

    End of drosho!

  • #626064

    teenager
    Member

    Gila- I am not blaming anyone here individually as I dont know who they are and I have no right to do that, and i am apologizing if I came on to strong, the main reason as I stated earlier that I went off the derech was abuse, it didnt help that the frum community as a whole is not so accepting and open armed (many individuals are), my actions are mine and yes I am at fault for what Iv’e done and I realize that, I just know that so many people who I knew when I wasnt really frum went off ebcause of the kind of attitide that is displayed on this forum. No one knows the impact they could have on someone good or abd, you dont know what a difference you could make it someones life, so all I am asking is to be careful

    Nobody- all I can say is wow, your words are very true and I hope everyone listens to them and takes it to ehart, I dont know why you dont post more often

  • #626065

    Nobody, your kind and well thought out words are like a drink of water in the middle of a desert of inflammatory, finger-pointing posts. It’s good to know that there are some users here who actually think about the consequences of their words before releasing them into cyberspace.

    Give Me a Break, I too wonder why my screen name is not on that list. Perhaps I’m too new.

  • #626066

    anon for this
    Participant

    Nobody, I understand your desire to remain anonymous, but your name doesn’t fit you at all. You are definitely important, and your post said what all of us needed to hear, and what I wish I was articulate enough to say.

    jewishfeminist02, this is an old thread; if you continue posting (& I hope you will) in time your name will be added to the list too.

  • #626067

    chachom
    Member

    He or she, IT has a capacity of stirring the pot and causing friction where none previously existed.

  • #626068

    Nobody
    Member

    I see this thread has been re-opened. Can we for the sake of the many people who have been referred to in this thread drop it / close the subject.

    Enough has been said, mud has been slung, tears (no doubt) shed. There is no point to re-open this subject other than for negativities.

  • #626069

    illini07
    Member

    GILA:

    No, teenager is exactly correct. It is the attitudes that teenager pointed out that does indeed cause many to go “off the derech.” Would you rather ignore the problem than fix it?

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