Sukkah built in an area which requires a city permit but no permit was gotten

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Daf Yomi Sukkah Sukkah built in an area which requires a city permit but no permit was gotten

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  • #1382523

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Can one sit in a sukkah and make a bracha on it if it was only allowed to be built with a city permit which owner failed to get?

    #1382592

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Any LOR’s on board?

    #1382602

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    Assur. The city will knock down the sukkah and v’neshmartem meod nafshosaychem–don’t be inside when that happens. Especially now when it’s not sukkos anymore and there is no mitzvah of sitting in a sukkah.

    #1382616

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Does it fall into a catagory of 诪爪讜讛 讛讘讗 讘注讘讬专讛?

    #1382618

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Lets assume the city has no clue that it exists was it a 讘专讻讛 诇讘讟诇讛?

    #1382623

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yes. Especially now when it鈥檚 not sukkos anymore and there is no mitzvah of sitting in a sukkah.

    #1382624

    Joseph
    Participant

    In the alte heim the antisemitn ym’s in some municipalities tried to stop us from building Succahs. So they made a regulation requiring a permit for any outdoor structure. And the permit incurred prohibitive fees and took many months to be approved. And even then they found technicalities to deny permits.

    But unzere chevra, in keeping the mitzvos, built our Succahs anyways, without a permit. Of course the antisemitn local inspectors ticketed the Yidden — and, per municipal regulations, gave them 10 days to remove the unauthorized structure to avoid penalties.

    Ah Yid gibt zich an eitzah!

    #1382625

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Lchatchila one needs permission and their is a machlokes if one can make a brocha if built without permission:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46442&st=&pgnum=74

    One can make a brocha on a sukkah built on his property even if the government forbids it :

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46442&st=&pgnum=75&hilite=

    However, since the sukkah is not stolen and KARKA EINO NIGZELES (Nitei Gavriel 4:12):

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46442&st=&pgnum=77

    #1382634

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    It is no longer a mitzvah to sit in the sukkah.

    #1382649

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    What if the sukka was built on a public fire escape, does that constitute 诪爪讜讛 讛讘讗 讘注讘讬专讛?

    #1382641

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I suspect the OP is referring to sukkahs built on sidewalks or streets, not those built on private property.

    #1382640

    akuperma
    Participant

    Has any such case been litigated in the United States? It seems to me that under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, which is applicable to state and local governments under the supremacy clause of the Federal constitution, it is unlikely a local law or regulation banning a sukkah would be upheld, at least as long as the sukkah was built on private property.

    #1382657

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, because like I said, it is no longer a mitzvah to sit in the sukkah.

    #1382663

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Since when is is no longer a mitzva to sit in a su sikka?

    #1382688

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    Since Sukkos is over.

    #1382691

    Joseph
    Participant

    Takes2: Since Succahs ended.

    #1382692

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just as some chassidim don’t make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos as long as possible some eat their meals in the succah until the second week of chevshan to get more mileage out of all the work they invested motzi yom kippur getting it built…sort of like your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X’mas lights up until mid-February

    #1382721

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    We are discussing a halacha lmyssa. Does not mean it has to be sukkos to discuss a hypothetical. Do u shut down the mishna berura because its not chanuka or pesach or sukkos? yet?

    #1382741

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some places have rules about temporary structures that are not grounded. Usually this is either a safety or Asthetic issue (Some Home owners associations have asthetic issues, meaning what kind of structures can be built because they dont want “eyesores”)

    Safety / Insurance is a real issue as a wind can blow down a succah and someone gets damage or hurt (I know of a case where a succah blew off a roof and damaged a car)

    #1382738

    yekke2
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah – Just as some chassidim don鈥檛 make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos as long as possible 鈥ort of like your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X鈥檓as lights up until mid-February

    Ahem. There is a world of difference, obviously. Not making Havdalah until 2AM is not simply about the ‘feel’ of Shabbos. There is a “诪爪讜讛 专讘讛 诇讛讜住讬祝 诪讞讜诇 注诇 讛拽讜讚砖”. Please do not compare a Kiyyum Mitzvah (probably d’oiraisah) to a lazy goy who cannot be bothered taking down his decorations.

    #1383017

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yekke 鈥 you still haven鈥檛 let me know what your personal question is.

    #1383036

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Yekke22
    “Please do not compare a Kiyyum Mitzvah (probably d鈥檕iraisah) [as in 2AM havdalah] to a lazy goy who cannot be bothered taking down his decorations…..

    Perhaps consider a reference to a goy without the pejorative adjective….it will make you a happier person. The point being that we have as many “lazy” yidden who don’t take down their succah until tu
    bshvat which I can assure you is NOT kiyyum mitzvah–either d’oiraisah or d’rabbonon….On late Shabbos, the large percentage of yidden make havdalah reasonably close to the z’man simply because they have lives and obligations for family, work etc. If you have the luxury of not having such obligations, then its a real luxury to be able to relish Shabbos kodesh for a few addtitional hours.

    #1383045

    Joseph
    Participant

    Note how ghd criticizes calling a goy “lazy”, but then — in the very same breath — refers to Yidden as lazy…

    #1383092

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Joseph….I guess you don’t recognize satire unless its labeled clearly as such….lighten up…my point was we stereotype folks on an equal opportunity basis…if there was some empirical studies undertaken, we’d probably find that frum yidden may actually be more timely in removing their succahs (hopefully not from their fire escapes) than my erliche goyish neighbor who has to climb up on the roof to remove the X’mas lights…I’ll not bother responding to your incessant hocking about my anti-frum, anti-Semitic anti everything yiddeshkeit postings.

    #1383897

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “Can one sit in a sukkah and make a bracha on it if it was only allowed to be built with a city permit which owner failed to get?”

    Would the same issue apply if the permit were required not from the government, but from a private entity such as a neighborhood association or a landlord?

    #1384673

    akuperma
    Participant

    A private entity (landlord, tenants association) is a matter of contract law, so “dina malchusa dina” is not an issue (not for that matter, is the First Amendment).

    #1384538

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A landlord or Home Owner Association has the right to make almost any rules they want even if normally the thing is legal.

    When you get into those you sign a lease or contract agreeing to obey those rules

    #1384481

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The 谞讟讗讬 讙讘专讬讗诇 specifically writes that a suckah built on a porch not belonging to you is pasul. Im assuming a fire escape sukkah falls into this catagory.

    #1384128

    Joseph
    Participant

    If built on one’s own property, failure to get a municipally required permit does not affect the validity of the Succah.

    #1384699

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Gadol Hadorah – He didn’t say that all or even most or even many goyim are lazy. He was talking about a specific hypothetical person in a hypothetical example whom you described as doing something that could be considered lazy.

    #1384708

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “A landlord or Home Owner Association has the right to make almost any rules they want even if normally the thing is legal.
    When you get into those you sign a lease or contract agreeing to obey those rules”

    But does failure to comply with those rules affect the validity of the sukkah or the appropriateness of the leisheiv basukkah blessing?

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  .
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  .
    #1384729

    yekke2
    Participant

    GodalHadorah: Perhaps consider a reference to a goy without the pejorative adjective鈥.it will make you a happier person. The point being that we have as many 鈥渓azy鈥 yidden who don鈥檛 take down their succah until tu
    bshvat which I can assure you is NOT kiyyum mitzvah鈥揺ither d鈥檕iraisah or d鈥檙abbonon鈥.

    I’m only responding simply as “lifnim mishuras hadin” in 讜讛讬讬转诐 谞拽讬讬诐.

    Of course I wasn’t insulting non Jews, nor was I stereotyping. I was just explaining the difference between your examples: You equated ‘chassidim [who] don鈥檛 make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos’ to ‘your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X鈥檓as lights up until mid-February’. I explained the obvious difference: The motivation to keep Shabbos for longer comes from an admirable 讞讘讬讘讜转 讛诪爪讜讜转, where they want to be 诪拽讬讬诐 more mitzvos. The motivation to keep the decorations up for longer – much like keeping a Sukkah up – is simply the “can’t-be-bothered” taking it down.

    I was clearly not stereotyping anybody, nor being offensive about any religious distinctions.

    Perhaps stop considering any reference to a goy a pejorative adjective. It will make you a happier person!

    #1384736

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    T22T: Never assume. The 谞讟讗讬 讙讘专讬讗诇 says the exact opposite about a fire escape – HASUKKAH KESHEIRAH (Hilchos Sukkah 4:5)

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46442&st=&pgnum=75&hilite=

    #1385134

    smerel
    Participant

    The R’MA says a sukkah cannot be built on public property (R’Shus H’Rabim) The later Achronim discuss to what degree the RMA meant it. All agree that the R’MA was not speaking about a case where you got a permit. The Biur Halacha even seems to say that if your backyard is government owned land but nobody ever goes there or uses it and the government doesn’t place any restrictions on things like your kids playing there then you can make a sukkah there even without a permit.

    If this is relevant ask your LOR

    #1385317

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    T22T: Never assume. The 谞讟讗讬 讙讘专讬讗诇 says the exact opposite about a fire escape 鈥 HASUKKAH KESHEIRAH (Hilchos Sukkah 4:5)
    _—————–
    Your incorrect. Re read it again.
    He says if the fire escape is shayach to you. Meaning no other people share it. But when others share it then in does not belong to you and there fore its pasul.

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