October 16, 2017 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1382523
Can one sit in a sukkah and make a bracha on it if it was only allowed to be built with a city permit which owner failed to get?October 16, 2017 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1382592
Any LOR’s on board?October 16, 2017 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1382602
Assur. The city will knock down the sukkah and v’neshmartem meod nafshosaychem–don’t be inside when that happens. Especially now when it’s not sukkos anymore and there is no mitzvah of sitting in a sukkah.October 16, 2017 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1382616
Does it fall into a catagory of מצוה הבא בעבירה?October 16, 2017 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1382618
Lets assume the city has no clue that it exists was it a ברכה לבטלה?October 16, 2017 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1382623
Yes. Especially now when it’s not sukkos anymore and there is no mitzvah of sitting in a sukkah.October 16, 2017 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1382624
In the alte heim the antisemitn ym’s in some municipalities tried to stop us from building Succahs. So they made a regulation requiring a permit for any outdoor structure. And the permit incurred prohibitive fees and took many months to be approved. And even then they found technicalities to deny permits.
But unzere chevra, in keeping the mitzvos, built our Succahs anyways, without a permit. Of course the antisemitn local inspectors ticketed the Yidden — and, per municipal regulations, gave them 10 days to remove the unauthorized structure to avoid penalties.
Ah Yid gibt zich an eitzah!October 16, 2017 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1382625iacisrmmaParticipant
Lchatchila one needs permission and their is a machlokes if one can make a brocha if built without permission:
One can make a brocha on a sukkah built on his property even if the government forbids it :
However, since the sukkah is not stolen and KARKA EINO NIGZELES (Nitei Gavriel 4:12):October 16, 2017 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1382634
It is no longer a mitzvah to sit in the sukkah.October 16, 2017 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1382649
What if the sukka was built on a public fire escape, does that constitute מצוה הבא בעבירה?October 16, 2017 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1382641yehudayonaParticipant
I suspect the OP is referring to sukkahs built on sidewalks or streets, not those built on private property.October 16, 2017 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1382640akupermaParticipant
Has any such case been litigated in the United States? It seems to me that under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, which is applicable to state and local governments under the supremacy clause of the Federal constitution, it is unlikely a local law or regulation banning a sukkah would be upheld, at least as long as the sukkah was built on private property.October 16, 2017 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1382657
No, because like I said, it is no longer a mitzvah to sit in the sukkah.October 17, 2017 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1382663
Since when is is no longer a mitzva to sit in a su sikka?October 17, 2017 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1382688
Since Sukkos is over.October 17, 2017 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1382691
Takes2: Since Succahs ended.October 17, 2017 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1382692
Just as some chassidim don’t make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos as long as possible some eat their meals in the succah until the second week of chevshan to get more mileage out of all the work they invested motzi yom kippur getting it built…sort of like your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X’mas lights up until mid-FebruaryOctober 17, 2017 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1382721
We are discussing a halacha lmyssa. Does not mean it has to be sukkos to discuss a hypothetical. Do u shut down the mishna berura because its not chanuka or pesach or sukkos? yet?October 17, 2017 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1382741zahavasdadParticipant
Some places have rules about temporary structures that are not grounded. Usually this is either a safety or Asthetic issue (Some Home owners associations have asthetic issues, meaning what kind of structures can be built because they dont want “eyesores”)
Safety / Insurance is a real issue as a wind can blow down a succah and someone gets damage or hurt (I know of a case where a succah blew off a roof and damaged a car)October 17, 2017 7:11 am at 7:11 am #1382738ChortkovParticipant
Gadolhadorah – Just as some chassidim don’t make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos as long as possible …sort of like your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X’mas lights up until mid-February
Ahem. There is a world of difference, obviously. Not making Havdalah until 2AM is not simply about the ‘feel’ of Shabbos. There is a “מצוה רבה להוסיף מחול על הקודש”. Please do not compare a Kiyyum Mitzvah (probably d’oiraisah) to a lazy goy who cannot be bothered taking down his decorations.October 17, 2017 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1383017
Yekke — you still haven’t let me know what your personal question is.October 17, 2017 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1383036
“Please do not compare a Kiyyum Mitzvah (probably d’oiraisah) [as in 2AM havdalah] to a lazy goy who cannot be bothered taking down his decorations…..
Perhaps consider a reference to a goy without the pejorative adjective….it will make you a happier person. The point being that we have as many “lazy” yidden who don’t take down their succah until tu
bshvat which I can assure you is NOT kiyyum mitzvah–either d’oiraisah or d’rabbonon….On late Shabbos, the large percentage of yidden make havdalah reasonably close to the z’man simply because they have lives and obligations for family, work etc. If you have the luxury of not having such obligations, then its a real luxury to be able to relish Shabbos kodesh for a few addtitional hours.October 17, 2017 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1383045
Note how ghd criticizes calling a goy “lazy”, but then — in the very same breath — refers to Yidden as lazy…October 17, 2017 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1383092
Joseph….I guess you don’t recognize satire unless its labeled clearly as such….lighten up…my point was we stereotype folks on an equal opportunity basis…if there was some empirical studies undertaken, we’d probably find that frum yidden may actually be more timely in removing their succahs (hopefully not from their fire escapes) than my erliche goyish neighbor who has to climb up on the roof to remove the X’mas lights…I’ll not bother responding to your incessant hocking about my anti-frum, anti-Semitic anti everything yiddeshkeit postings.October 17, 2017 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1383897DovidBTParticipant
“Can one sit in a sukkah and make a bracha on it if it was only allowed to be built with a city permit which owner failed to get?”
Would the same issue apply if the permit were required not from the government, but from a private entity such as a neighborhood association or a landlord?October 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384673akupermaParticipant
A private entity (landlord, tenants association) is a matter of contract law, so “dina malchusa dina” is not an issue (not for that matter, is the First Amendment).October 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384538zahavasdadParticipant
A landlord or Home Owner Association has the right to make almost any rules they want even if normally the thing is legal.
When you get into those you sign a lease or contract agreeing to obey those rulesOctober 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384481
The נטאי גבריאל specifically writes that a suckah built on a porch not belonging to you is pasul. Im assuming a fire escape sukkah falls into this catagory.October 17, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1384128
If built on one’s own property, failure to get a municipally required permit does not affect the validity of the Succah.October 17, 2017 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1384699Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
Gadol Hadorah – He didn’t say that all or even most or even many goyim are lazy. He was talking about a specific hypothetical person in a hypothetical example whom you described as doing something that could be considered lazy.October 17, 2017 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1384708DovidBTParticipant
“A landlord or Home Owner Association has the right to make almost any rules they want even if normally the thing is legal.
When you get into those you sign a lease or contract agreeing to obey those rules”
But does failure to comply with those rules affect the validity of the sukkah or the appropriateness of the leisheiv basukkah blessing?October 17, 2017 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1384729ChortkovParticipant
GodalHadorah: Perhaps consider a reference to a goy without the pejorative adjective….it will make you a happier person. The point being that we have as many “lazy” yidden who don’t take down their succah until tu
bshvat which I can assure you is NOT kiyyum mitzvah–either d’oiraisah or d’rabbonon….
I’m only responding simply as “lifnim mishuras hadin” in והייתם נקיים.
Of course I wasn’t insulting non Jews, nor was I stereotyping. I was just explaining the difference between your examples: You equated ‘chassidim [who] don’t make Havdalah until 2AM to hold on to the feel and kedushah of Shabbos’ to ‘your goyishe neighbor who leaves the X’mas lights up until mid-February’. I explained the obvious difference: The motivation to keep Shabbos for longer comes from an admirable חביבות המצוות, where they want to be מקיים more mitzvos. The motivation to keep the decorations up for longer – much like keeping a Sukkah up – is simply the “can’t-be-bothered” taking it down.
I was clearly not stereotyping anybody, nor being offensive about any religious distinctions.
Perhaps stop considering any reference to a goy a pejorative adjective. It will make you a happier person!October 17, 2017 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1384736iacisrmmaParticipant
T22T: Never assume. The נטאי גבריאל says the exact opposite about a fire escape – HASUKKAH KESHEIRAH (Hilchos Sukkah 4:5)October 18, 2017 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1385134smerelParticipant
The R’MA says a sukkah cannot be built on public property (R’Shus H’Rabim) The later Achronim discuss to what degree the RMA meant it. All agree that the R’MA was not speaking about a case where you got a permit. The Biur Halacha even seems to say that if your backyard is government owned land but nobody ever goes there or uses it and the government doesn’t place any restrictions on things like your kids playing there then you can make a sukkah there even without a permit.
If this is relevant ask your LOROctober 18, 2017 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1385317
T22T: Never assume. The נטאי גבריאל says the exact opposite about a fire escape – HASUKKAH KESHEIRAH (Hilchos Sukkah 4:5)
Your incorrect. Re read it again.
He says if the fire escape is shayach to you. Meaning no other people share it. But when others share it then in does not belong to you and there fore its pasul.
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