Talking During Davening

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  • #590311

    obamanaz
    Member

    I saw this Posted in my shul.

    Save your family And Klal Yisroel from danger*

    Halochos of Talking during Davening

    1031. The difficulties that one experiences in life with regard to children, health and parnassah derive from the sin of speaking during Tefillah. Piskei Tshuvos 124:7, Igeres R’ Dov Ber, son of The Shulchan Aruch Harav

    1032. When one speaks during during Chazoras Hashatz, not only has one caused that his own tefillos will not be accepted, but one has also caused that the tefillos of others will not be accepted. Therefore, if one knows himself; that he will be unable to remain silent, it is better that he should not come to shul at all, rather than be “a sinner who causes others to sin”. Piskei Tshuvos 124:7, Yaaros Dvash Drush7, Olelos Efraim vol4pg3, Pesach Aneiyim L’Hachidah

    1033. One who speaks during Chazoras Hashatz causes the Shechinah to leave Klal Yisroel, and it is as if he has sinned with Avodah Zorah. Drush Chasam Sofer vol2pg309b

    1034. The father of the Shelah Hakodosh states that “I swear, amongst all sins I have not found any as terrible as one who speaks in shul purposely and thereby humiliates the honor of God, and he is as bad as Yeravam ben Nevat who sinned (with Avodah Zorah) and caused others to sin, and this sin holds back the coming of Moshiach”. Piskei Tshuvos 124:7, Sefer Yesh Nochalin

    1035. The Elya Rabba citing the Kol Bo states: “Many shuls have been destroyed directly as a result of this sin {speaking during Chazoras Hashatz and tefillah}. Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 124:7 MB27

    1036. The magnitude of the sin of speaking during Chazoras Hashatz is applicable as well to one who speaks during Krias Hatorah, or any other time during Tefillah when one may not speak, because one who conducts his own private conversation while the tzibbur is gathered to speak with God declares that he is not interested in the honor of God’s kingdom, and that he has no portion in the God of Israel. Piskei Tshuvos 124:7, SA 146:2

    * Chmielnicki’s pogroms, which resulted in the massacre of more than 300,000 Jews, broke out, May 25, 1648. Called the “gezeirosTach v’Tat” During the tragic years of the Chmielnicki persecutions of 1648-1649, the renowned sageRay Yom-Tov Lipmann Heller, known as the Tosafot Yom Tov, introduced a mi she bairach prayer intothe synagogue service which was not only meant as a special blessing for those who refrained fromtalking during synagogue prayers, but was also a reaction to the Chmielnicki massacre itself. The massacre and destruction of hundreds of synagogues and houses of study was apparently viewed as Divine reproof for the widespread practice of talking during tefillah.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    comment added:

    Check the following link for an interesting DT on this subjct:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ywn-coffee-room-nightly-dvar-torah/page/22#post-67956

    #663931

    oomis
    Participant

    My Rov once related to us that he saw a sign in Eretz Yisroel that stated that one who talks during Kaddish (and especially that of an aveil), loses his cheilek olam haba. Powerful words, but I take it seriously.

    #663933

    feivel
    Participant

    i heard from a Rov

    if you treat the Kaddish with disrespect, then when your children say it for you (after 120) it will not be an aliyah for the Neshamah

    #663934

    Elmo
    Member

    I heard the shuls in the middle east were saved from destruction during WW2 because of there being careful not to speak in davening. I heard an interesting vort I cant remember from who.it says whoever speaks during davening is as if he murdered. how can this be?

    see the link in the added comment in the OP

    avoda is one of the 3 pillars holding up the world(avot perek 1 mishna 2)by talking u disturb davening/avoda and cause this pillar to crumble.

    #663935

    Be Happy
    Participant

    Please don’t talk during davening. There is so much suffering out there. Unfortunately we know others are suffering. Don’t wait for the suffering to reach you. Help protect yourself and others.

    #663936

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Talking during Chazaras Hashatz has always been one of my pet peeves. I am so happy that I daven in a shul where people don’t talk during davening.

    OTOH, I find myself constantly talking during laining… and unable to stop.

    The Wolf

    #663937

    mepal
    Member

    Wolf, are you the baal korei? If not, why not try that? That should help solve your problem!

    #663938

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolfish – Google “talking during leining” (without the quotes), and you will find that your talking during leining is the first Google result.

    #663939

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    “Dah lifnei mee atoh omeid”

    Do we need more than this to stop us?

    #663940

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolfish – Google “talking during leining” (without the quotes), and you will find that your talking during leining is the first Google result.

    That’s quite funny. Or, I suppose, no one else is dumb enough to make such a bad joke. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #663941

    squeak
    Participant

    It didn’t fall completely flat, Wolf 😉 But you should have held out longer.

    #663943

    for more on this topics visit tips for better davening

    #663945
    #663946

    thanks mod. for making it a link. Is it possible for me to make a link?

    #663947

    <strong><a href="">HERE</a></strong>

    You put the actual url in between the two quotation marks (following “href=)

    then whatever you want the link to read you replace the word: “HERE” with whatever word or words you want to appear on the page

    #663948

    thanks

    #663949

    lesschumras
    Participant

    elmo said: I heard the shuls in the middle east were saved from destruction during WW2 because of there being careful not to speak in davening.

    I’ve often wondered where these statements come from. How do they know? Did a Bas Kol

    announce it? Was there not a single shul in Europe that did not speak during davening?

    #663951

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Lesschumras, those statements do not make a word of sense, and are against all logic. Do they mean to say that we in the USA were better daveners than the kedoshim in Europe? It is an insult to those who perished. See the book Lest We Forget, by the gadol hador Rabbi Shlomo Wahrman shlita who totally debunks this theory, and demonstrates how insensitive it is.

    #663952

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    While the cause and effect for talking and tragedy is difficult to deal with, I believe the source for the fallacy is that in Middle Eastern synagogues much of the davening is done out loud (as it is in the Moroccan synagogue I davened at years ago) and talking while davening is therefore not as possible as it is in our Ashkenazi shuls.

    The rest of it may well be urban legend and not even a verifiable statement from a godol of any note. I do not know what the minhag was in Salonika but that kehilla kedosha was just about totally wiped out in the churban.

    #663954

    starwolf
    Member

    Personally, I think that searching for possible consequences of talking during chazarat hasha”tz such as losing one’s place in olam haba is not addressing the point. We do not understand such consequences of our actions.

    However, we do understand other consequences of our actions. If we talk during chazarat hasha”tz, or kaddish, we are negating our entire reason for davening with a minyan. The whole idea of tfila b’tzibur is the “tzibur”–and talking during the parts of the davening in which you are represented by a shaliach or others negates that concept.

    If one has difficulty concentrating on these parts of the davening, bring a sefer. Learn a few mishnayot. It may not be what you are there for, butr at least you will not disturb others.

    #663956

    pookie
    Member

    mod is the coolest

    #663957

    post
    Member

    not such a big deal to talk during davening. at least we are in shul and not succombing to the taivos of this generation. this is why our teens go off the derech because people like you turn them off with their ridiculus ocd made up chumros. people wish their kids would be in shul talking during davening instead of hanging out in bad places. you should be thankful your kids are in shul and not on the streets

    #663958

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    post: It is a BIG deal! halacha states that if you know ur childen are gonna be very noisy & disturb the davening, do NOT bring them to shul, (mind you this is talking about small children who dont know what they are doing is wrong)

    can you imagine the magnitude of the offense if done by adults who know

    how serious this really is.

    Maybe our teens go off the derech because they were raised by parents

    who are afraid to teach them right from wrong,

    for fear of them going off the derech!!!

    The Sanctity of a shul should be taught to all of our children.

    G’mar Chasima Toiva!

    #663959

    post
    Member

    Your posts will not be approved if you continue to be rude to posters or moderators. You are past the point of the privilege of having your posts edited.

    #663960

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In my shul when people talk during krias hatorah, we ask them to leave. Perhaps your shul should do the same.

    If my shul asked me to leave for talking during leining, it would cause more problems than it would solve. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #663961

    charliehall
    Participant

    We are blessed that two blocks from the home we moved into two weeks ago there is a Yomim Noraim minyan that prohibits talking and provides low cost child care for families.

    #663963

    Joseph
    Participant

    I guess Wolf won’t be davening there. 🙂

    #663964

    squeak
    Participant

    Why not?

    #663965

    Joseph
    Participant

    Its too far a walk.

    #663966

    squeak
    Participant

    It’s never too far if you have billions of years to walk there 🙂

    #663967

    cherrybim
    Participant

    WolfishMusings – Why just at K’rias Hatorah? There should be no talking during davening, period.

    #663968

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf – time to explain, I think.

    #663969

    LeiderLeider…
    Participant

    Wolf is probably the Baal Korah, which is why he finds himself “constantly talking during laining… and unable to stop”

    #663970

    cherrybim
    Participant

    WolfishMusings- “I am so happy that I daven in a shul where people don’t talk during davening.”

    Sorry, I didn’t notice this post of yours before.

    But, in my shul, a “regular” would not talk during davening and a “guest” would be tolerated for as long as possible.

    #663971

    i was a counselor in a sleepaway camp this past sumnmer for a group of ten-year-olds. before one teffilah, i reminded one of the kids to keep quiet during davening.you know what he answered?

    Kid: i’m supposed to do what my father does, Right?

    Me: yes

    Kid: well my father talks after he finishes each piece of davening, so shouldn’t i??

    (Me: speachless)

    (the kid was probably just trying to be a little fresh, but still…)

    #663972

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I was once staying in someone’s house where they had a minyan on Friday night so one member of the family wouldn’t have to go to shul as it was difficult for him to walk. Just before they were ready to start davening one of the kids was talking. Someone said to him (and he was definitely joking), “Stop talking. Where do you think you are? In shul?”

    #663973

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    a (belated) Grand Welcome goes out to haifagirl!

    #663974

    I used to daven yomim noraim in a yeshiva with hundreds of people. This year I davened in a small kollel with 13 people! But I didn’t notice the difference, because the atmosphere was so sincere and everyone was in their davening with full force. But all shuls I’ve been for were gehfehrluch (even RH and YK) – people would shmooze and it was all a big joke of showing off suits, and there was no kol tfilla.

    #663975

    obamanaz
    Member

    One may not say Tehillim or other prayers during Pesukei D’zimrah or Chazoras Hashatz. Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Berurah 51:4, see Be’er Haitaiv 3 – Let alon Shmooz away making a big chilul Ha-shem

    #663976

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    One may not say Tehillim or other prayers during Pesukei D’zimrah or Chazoras Hashatz.

    “…and from my students (I learn) most of all”

    I used to open up a sefer (usually a Mishnayos) during Chazaras Hashatz. Then, about two years ago, I found my oldest son reading a book for school during Chazaras HaShatz. When I told him that it was inappropriate to do so, he countered that I also read during the Chazarah. I tried, at first, to rationalize my actions with the fact that what I was reading was actual learning while he was just reading a novel, but, when push came to shove, he was right — what I was doing was wrong too — even if it was in learning. I had to admit to him that he was correct — and I at that point told him that I would no longer learn during Chazaras HaShatz.

    As a result, since then, I follow along with the Chazzan during Chazaras HaShatz — and so does he.

    The Wolf

    #663977

    aryeh3
    Participant

    Is it not widely believed that, because of Galus and the difficulty of kavanah for most Jews, our own silent Amidah is not enough to discharge our obligation to daven and that we need to listen attentively and respond to the Chazzan’s repetition?

    #663978

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Is it not widely believed that, because of Galus and the difficulty of kavanah for most Jews, our own silent Amidah is not enough to discharge our obligation to daven and that we need to listen attentively and respond to the Chazzan’s repetition?

    It’s not believed by me.

    According to your theory, there is no point to daven when there is no minyan present — because you can’t discharge your obligation.

    I also firmly believe that a person is capable of having kavanah in davening. That most don’t is an indicator of other problems, but not of a lack of ability.

    And lastly, if they aren’t paying attention when they are actively saying the words, why do you think it will be any better when they are passively listening?

    The Wolf

    #663979

    aryeh3
    Participant

    According to your theory, there is no point to daven when there is no minyan present — because you can’t discharge your obligation.

    I also firmly believe that a person is capable of having kavanah in davening. That most don’t is an indicator of other problems, but not of a lack of ability.

    And lastly, if they aren’t paying attention when they are actively saying the words, why do you think it will be any better when they are passively listening?

    I believe it is always preferable to daven with an minyen unless it is impossible, and then you must daven without a minyan. But there is always the obligation to daven, no matter what.

    I was taught that because of the darkness of the Galus of our generation that it is virtually impossible for a single Jew to reach a level of kavanah comparable to the “worst” minyan.

    I am not judging you or anyone else, just repeating what I have been taught about our entire generation, not a Jew here and there – but the idea is that we are incapable of actually davening like previous generations, not exactly but halachally similar to someone who in unable to understand the words and must rely on the Chazzan’s repetition.

    During this Galus, it is up to us to do everything we can in order to concentrate during our own davening <b>and</b> listening attentively to the Chazzan.

    This is what I have been taught – it may be extreme, but there you have it.

    #663980

    aryeh

    Substitute the word “strong” instead of “b”

    #663981

    Joseph
    Participant

    Aryeh – I’m with you all the way here.

    #663982

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I believe it is always preferable to daven with an minyen unless it is impossible, and then you must daven without a minyan. But there is always the obligation to daven, no matter what.

    Well, I agree with you here.

    I was taught that because of the darkness of the Galus of our generation that it is virtually impossible for a single Jew to reach a level of kavanah comparable to the “worst” minyan.

    I’m not sure why you are conflating the ideas of davening with kavannah and davening with a minyan. They are two separate issues. Whether I daven with kavannah is a function of how well I concentrate on my davening, not how many people I have around me. Likewise, whether I daven with a minyan or not has nothing to do with whether or not I have kavannah when I daven.

    I have been taught about our entire generation, not a Jew here and there – but the idea is that we are incapable of actually davening like previous generations

    That may or may not be true… but that’s not quite the same thing you said earlier. Earlier you said that a person cannot discharge his obligation to daven at all without listening to the chazzan.

    I reject the idea that we are automatically doomed to failure because of our inability to do something. If we’re still obligated to daven* (even alone), then I have to believe that it’s because we are capable of being yotzei the mitzvah while alone.

    During this Galus, it is up to us to do everything we can in order to concentrate during our own davening and listening attentively to the Chazzan.

    I fail to see why this is any different whether we are in galus or not.

    The Wolf

    * As opposed to our obligation to bring a korban, which is suspended while there is no Beis HaMikdash.

    #663983

    cantoresq
    Member

    If there were anything at all interesting going on the amud, perhaps people would talk less in schul. After all, there is only so much one can read in the presence of annoying background noise

    EDITED

    #663984

    feivel
    Participant

    Whether I daven with kavannah is a function of how well I concentrate on my davening, not how many people I have around me.

    so one might think. certainly your kavannah is crucial, but not to the exclusion of the rest of the Minyan. the more one is attuned to his Neshama, the more one is connected to others that are attuned to their Neshama.

    there becomes a unified communal Tefilah. (as well as the individual Tefillas also)

    #663985

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Feivel,

    You, too, are confusing the two issues.

    How much kavannah I have is NOT dependent on whether I daven with a minyan.

    Whether one is involved with communal tefillah IS dependent on whether I daven with a minyan.

    BOTH are factors in how “acceptable” my tefillah is to HKBH. But when push comes to shove, the second can be dispensed with (otherwise there’s no point to daven alone when a minyan is unavailable). The first cannot.

    The Wolf

    #663986

    feivel
    Participant

    This poster asked to be allowed to rephrase this post

    my point, clumsily stated, was that ones individual Kavannah is influenced by the Tzibur

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