January 11, 2017 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #618994
The fact that most of them live in New York and New Jersey.
We are all human, and we unfortunately succumb to our desires frequently, whether we realize it or not. Included in those desires are the unhealthy interpersonal ones, such as jealousy, peer pressure, creating subgroups of people/places/practice that are “better” or “worse” than what you know, and the list goes on.
When we live in highly concentrated areas, and deal with multitudes of Jews day in and day out, we inevitably start creating subgroups of better or worse Jews, schools, shuls, etc. We create more and more “options” for things because we feel the need to keep splitting ideologies apart. The more options there are, the less success we’ll have living a healthy, wholesome lifestyle.
The Torah is the source for how living a happy, meaningful life is discovered through creating limits and boundaries. When we only have 1 shul to daven in, 1 school to send our kids to, and a small, motley collection of Jews we can associate with, we will have more wholesome, meaningful lives.
The solution: The Frum Jewish population should be spread out across the world in communities of no more than 100-200 families, and most importantly, the people grouped together should be selected at random.
I welcome your thoughts.January 11, 2017 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1209486
good luck with that
people want to live near the families and friends not some remote areaJanuary 11, 2017 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1209487
It’s hard to choose the Number One Tragedy (problem, really) facing the Frum world.
I agree that you have identified one of the biggest problems, but I think you’re just a bit off.
The problem is not that so many people live near each other. It is that so many people are so weak that they can not help but be overcome with jealousy and the like when they see their neighbors’ lifestyles.
For too long, we have been telling ourselves (in the form of speeches at dinners and conventions, in the form of books and Shabbos Derashos, and in so many other ways) that we are wonderful.
Don’t get me wrong; I do not mean to dismiss all we’ve accomplished. Of course, there are great people, and of course there are regular people who do great things.
However, generally, we have grown increasingly petty, materialistic, self-centered, and self-absorbed. As a community, we have not worked to develop proper character in each of our individual members.
The solution is not decentralization. This will only replace the current set of symptoms with another. The solution is to admit to ourselves that we need to be held to a higher standard of character, and then to embark on a campaign to develop that character.
The character traits mentioned above are expected in my Elementary School students, but should not last to adulthood. We need to grow up.January 11, 2017 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1209488
“people want to live near the families and friends not some remote area”
Interesting comment from someone who just suggested people move out to Scranton.January 11, 2017 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1209489
Nice idea. There are certainly many nice small-to-medium sized frum communities within a few hour drive of NY (Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Rochester, etc.). Housing is very inexpensive, people are friendly, life is less hectic, everyone davens at the same few shuls and people basically all get along.
But why not move to a small town in Israel instead? Then at least there are kosher restaurants…not to mention the opportunities for mitzvos that we can’t perform here.January 11, 2017 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1209490
The most ideal situation is for Jews to live highly concentrated among acheinu bnei yisroel with as little interaction as possible with nochrim.January 11, 2017 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1209491
“people want to live near the families and friends”
And kosher pizzaJanuary 11, 2017 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1209492
Avram in MDParticipant
“people want to live near the families and friends not some remote area”
Interesting comment from someone who just suggested people move out to Scranton.
In that same post zahavasdad wrote “and you can easily drive to brooklyn in about 3 hours or so, so that you are close to family and friends“, so obviously he sees a difference between moving to Scranton and scattering random people in groups of 100-200 across the entire world. As would any clear thinking person.
Seriously, is your entire purpose for being on the CR to incessantly hound zahavasdad?January 11, 2017 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1209493
That’s our #1 tragedy?
Sorry, but no.
Not even close.
Our #1 tragedy is that we were not zoche to be makriv a korban tamid today.
And of course we can’t look away from the various broken hearts, our own and others’, that will not be completely whole until that smoke rises above Yerushalayim again.January 11, 2017 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1209494
I have lived in small Jewish communities and have lived in Brooklyn most of life, and nothing compares with what a large frum community offers. Living in a small frum community is like living in the midbar.January 11, 2017 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1209495
The best way to fight a troll is to ignore itJanuary 11, 2017 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1209496
I have lived in small Jewish Communities and I have lived in Brooklyn.
There is much that Brooklyn offers that is of no interest to me: congestion,subways, buses, pollution, close living (no having multiple acres lots with woods, room for a private and secluded pool) impossible (or expensive) parking. NOISE, high NYC property taxes, HIGH NYS and NYC income and sales taxes, everyone in your space and minding your business.
I am more than happy to drive 90-120 minutes to occasionally dine, shop or see relatives in Brooklyn, but I would not want to live there and didn’t want to raise a family there.
BTW>>>I do not care about pizza shops and takeout prepared food places. We are more than happy to cook our meals without those overpriced conveniences, plus I wouldn’t want my children or grandchildren hanging out at the pizza shop.
I don’t consider my suburban home to be in the desert, rather an oasis.January 11, 2017 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1209497
ZD- In regard to your first post, that is precisely my point. People need to be challenged and thrown out of their comfort zone in order to really discover their potential. Remaining with the same group of people all your life stifles that growth.
catch yourself- Well said. However, I still think my solution will empower us, and force us, to grow much more than trying to work on ourselves without really changing our lifestyles at all.January 11, 2017 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1209498
Golfer, your #1 tragedy, is the same as that of the OP.
I believe TruthWins’ point is, that because there are so many Yidden concentrated together in one area they have divided into factions, and many may consider themselves better than others or at least have reason to separate themselves.
Consider this: I remember hearing an interview with the late Chazan/singer Reb David Werdyger z”l. He was asked, as a Gerrer chasid, how was it that you sang nigunim of Belz, Chabad, Modzhitz, etc (or whatever it was). His answer was most enlightening. After the war, there were Shomrei Shabbos and non-Shomrei Shabbos. No one cared what kappel, hat, streimel or spodek you wore. You were happy to see a Yid who still believes ‘az s’iz dor a bashefer in d’velt’ (that there is a Creator in the world). There wasn’t a difference between Gerrer nigunim or Modzhitzer nigunim etc. any more than there is a difference between singing Shabbos nigunim or Yomtov nigunim. Nowadays, our strength is that each group has grown, and has set themselves up as an entity of its own. That does not encourage achdus, it only makes it more difficult.
Another point: By way of example; In Antwerp, there is one Vizhnitzer Beis Hamedrash for the chassidim of 4 different Vizhnitzer Rebbes. (2 in Bnei Brak, 1 in Monsey and Seret in Haifa). There are so few chassidim of each Rebbe, that they have never split up, and all daven together, ‘praver’ together, and differences are hardly noticed. In big cities, like Yerushalayim, Bnei Braq, Boro Park etc, I’m sure each one of these groups has their own Shul, and possibly schools, yeshivos, kollelim etc. Where do you think there is more achdus?
In a small town, there will be maybe two shuls, (you can’t just have ONE shul ;)), and many more different types will daven together, get to know each other, overcome each others’ differences and, thereby, bring more nachas ruach to the Ribono shel Olam, the Father of ALL yieden. This will bring Moshiach, and ultimately the return of the Avodas Beis Hamikdosh.January 11, 2017 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1209499
I don’t consider my suburban home to be in the desert, rather an oasis.
Thank you, and I couldn’t agree more. That was a pretty rude (close minded? self absorbed?) commentJanuary 11, 2017 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1209502
DaasYochidParticipantJanuary 12, 2017 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1209503
CTLAWYER: I totally understand your position and reasons for living where you do. Not every place outside of NYC is a “midbar”. However, there are those who live in NYC for reasons having nothing to do with the ‘gashmius’ items you mention. Some may have residency requirements for their jobs, they like having a greater number of choices for yeshiva ketanos (I won’t include Mesivtos as dorming is always an option after elementary school), close to their Rosh Yeshiva. At the same time, I know someone who lives in CT and travels to NYC to buy all his meats an chickens as the prices where he lives is 200% more then here in NYC.January 12, 2017 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1209504
It’s all about making choices and what is important to you.
I don’t have to travel to NY to buy meat, I can simply phone in a large order and have it delivered from NY. I don’t have to worry about shopping on the Avenue a couple of times each week, because my apartment only has room for a 14 cubic foot refrigerator with a small freezer section. We have loads of space. My chametz kitchen is bigger than the one bedroom apartment I had on Ocean Parkway as a young single in 1970. I have additional refrigeration and freezer space in our garage, butler’s pantry and basement. Our Pesach kitchen is 20×20 with its own storage as well, I couldn’t afford to have all this space in Brooklyn (5700 sq ft 17 room house and a separate garage building with a studio apartment above). It is no effort to host all the children, in-laws, grandchildren for the holidays in comfortable accommodations at the CTL resort. We B”H own our own Sifrei Torah and host on premises minyan for Yuntif when the family is here. No need to worry about public swimming, as we can set the hours for separate swimming in our pool, hot tub, as well as use out sports courts. We own the house for taxes and utilities. Taxes are about $1500 per month..I couldn’t rent a decent 1 bedroom apartment for that in Brooklyn. So, if I spend extra for food being brought in, or to have sent kids to yeshiva away from home, fine. I never had a bill for sleep away camp, who needed to leave our compound? Mrs. CTL’s mother lives next door, SIL and family 4 doors away.
and none of this lifestyle precludes me being a baal tzedaka, who attends minyan every morning, runs a law firm and learns each day. 4 children married off and 1 to go…all married frum despite being raised in the desert,January 12, 2017 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1209505
May you always have generous blessings and nachas CTLAWYER!January 12, 2017 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1209506
I thought I said it wasn’t a midbar! As you state it is all a matter of choices. My mother was an almanah when I was married and moving away was not an option.
I know we don’t always agree with each other but I never doubted your frumkeit.January 12, 2017 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1209507
DY, what’s your point?January 12, 2017 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1209508
YYTZ” “But why not move to a small town in Israel instead? Then at least there are kosher restaurants…not to mention the opportunities for mitzvos that we can’t perform here.”
The ideal is for all Yidden to live in Eretz Yisrael. If you’re already moving anyhow, why not come home?January 12, 2017 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1209509
On that note, I recently came across something interesting: the Rambam rules (in discussing what happens when one potential spouse wants to marry on condition of moving somewhere) that the couple should move to Eretz Yisrael, even if they are currently living in a place where most people are Yidden and the place they are moving in E”Y is majority goyim.January 13, 2017 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1209510
Loshon Hora and Sinas Chinam – clearly much bigger problems than the Churban!January 13, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1209511
LuL, What you’re saying is a Chofetz Chaim. Those two things exactly, are what is stopping the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh.January 13, 2017 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1209512
The communities I lived in were a midbar, but even the ones I have visited do not appeal to me. CTlawyer, you choose to focus on the negatives, I choose to focus on all the positive living in a large community have to offer that have NOTHING to do with gashmius. I don’t eat out or attend the various entertainments, but I love having a block full of frum neighbors, seeing a lot of frum people in the street, having minyanim almost anytime day or night if I happen to need it and a multitude of shiurim, schools, etc.January 13, 2017 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1209513
actually I was pointing out what does not appeal to me about living in 2017 Brooklyn. That is different than focusing on negatives. When I was 20 and single, I loved living on Ocean Parkway in the midst of the hustle and bustle with frum people and shops all around. It’s now what I want in this stage of life.January 15, 2017 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1209514
“LuL, What you’re saying is a Chofetz Chaim. Those two things exactly, are what is stopping the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh.”
Geordie – +1! That’s the proof that those two things are worse than the Churban. Hashem is withholding the Beis Hamikdosh because He wants us to get rid of LH and SC, so clearly Hashem considers LH and SC to be much worse.January 15, 2017 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1209515
Flatbusher- I’m from out-of-town and I love out-of-town, and I didn’t see anything wrong with your statement whatsoever and was totally not offended.
You were just stating your opinion about out-of-town living. You weren’t criticizing the people.
Additionally, I’m not even sure that it was necessarily an objectively negative statement. Some people think it’s a maaleh to be in the midbar- away from distractions and gashmius. I read that R’ Aharon davka chose Lakewood for his Yeshiva for that reason.January 15, 2017 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1209516
the biggest problem facing the jewish world now, is the fact that we feel the need to create a crisis for everything, the shidduch crisis, the parnasah crisis, the teaching English in schools crisis (FJJ), etc. if everyone would not go crazy about all these stupidities, than the jewish world would be a better place.January 15, 2017 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1209517
Even if you take away the word crisis, are there not many Jews who struggle in these areas?
Are you not asking people to stop thinking about situations that greatly impact their lives?
The whole tuition criss, which is also a parnassah crisis, imho is a pretty big deal when parents cannot afford to put their children in school and cannot afford to not have them in school.
Labeling a crisis a crisis isn’t really the issue. The frustration it seems is that the solutions aren’t accessible. Understandably people don’t want to hear about it. However for someone going through it, or stuck in it for decades without relief, perhaps being in the same crisis boat is better than feeling pressured to keep silent in the struggle.January 15, 2017 4:40 am at 4:40 am #1209518
flatbushaskan – lol, +1.January 15, 2017 6:34 am at 6:34 am #1209519
There so many crises in our world at this time. May Hashem help us! Whether it’s shidduchim, health, terrorism, divorce,parnassa-there’s too many to count. I think Hashem wants us to be more united and not look down on people less frum than us, more frum then us or not frum at all. I’ve been told by nonfrum people that they are upset that frum people think they are superior. I don’t believe Hashem wants us to have this attitude. We need to respect one another. If it doesn’t bring a person closer to becoming frum, at least they will come to respect frum people. Even among the frum, we shouldn’t look down from people who come from different backgrounds-litvish, Chassidish, Modern Orthodox, Sefardi-yes we can have different minhagim and different viewpoits but we don’t know what makes each person do what they do or observe differently than we do and it doesn’t always mean we are right and they are wrong. Elu v’elu divrei Elokim Chaim. May peace come in our day and hopefully hasten the coming of Moshiach. Amein.January 15, 2017 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1209520
Amen.January 16, 2017 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1209521
Not to mix threads, but I heard today that the Novaminsker Rebbe said that Open Orthodoxy is the number one threat today.January 16, 2017 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1209522
Futurepotus, wow, that’s scary! In order for it to pose such a big threat, it seems to me that it must be that it has a lot of supporters within the Orthodox world. I had not realized that was the case.January 16, 2017 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1209523
There are not alot of supporters of OO in the orthodox world.
I can pretty much gurantee that very few of any who are members will stop being because of this statementJanuary 16, 2017 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1209524
Not that anyone asked me, but if you were to ask me, IMO the number #1 threat is corruption
If people think you are corrupt, they will not listen to anything else you have to sayJanuary 16, 2017 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1209525
zahavasdad +1 x 10^?January 16, 2017 5:05 am at 5:05 am #1209526
Unless you’re a politician.January 16, 2017 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1209527
lilmod ulelamaid: I believe there’s a difference here between in-town and out-of-town areas. In the tri-state area, it isn’t much accepted anywhere, and they don’t have as wide a backing. But in other areas of the country they have their Rabbis in almost every city where Jews are, and are widely recognized and followed. To better put it: in Yeshiva Orthodox, no one recognizes them, but outside of that Avi Weiss is very highly regarded, and people regard it as acceptable (at the least). The real danger lies in that people don’t see it as a problem.January 19, 2017 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1209529
“I can pretty much gurantee that very few of any who are members will stop being because of this statement”
But someone who is on the border might very well think twice about it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.