The Chofetz Chaim mesorah is great

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  • #1466343

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    A question for all the men……did you ever consider what color your kittel is and what color your tachrichim are going to be?

    #1466346

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Im curious to k now why when it comes to girl schools who have a school uniform the gorls are required to wear those uniform only during schools hours. Once off school premises they are no longer required to wear those uniform. However by bochrim, if they are caught wearing any color shirt when they are away from yeshiva , they get called into the rosh yeshivas office for a nice shmooze. No im not talking when playing sports or bain hazmanim.

    #1466353

    Joseph
    Participant

    A Ben Torah isn’t only a Ben Torah when in Yeshiva.

    Could you imagine Rav Moshe or Rav Chaim in a blue shirt?

    #1466356

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Im curious to k now why when it comes to girl schools who have a school uniform the gorls are required to wear those uniform only during schools hours. Once off school premises they are no longer required to wear those uniform. However by bochrim, if they are caught wearing any color shirt when they are away from yeshiva , they get called into the rosh yeshivas office for a nice shmooze. No im not talking when playing sports or bain hazmanim.

    Girls’ uniforms serve a different purpose than boys’ unforms. They are mostly designed to decrease the jealousy and comparisons between one girl’s clothing and another.

    The purpose of the boys’ “uniforms” is mostly identification with a certain type of ben Torah. That same purpose is achieved for girls with the unofficial “uniform” of a Bais Yaakov girl – a certain level of tznius and refinement which is expected to be maintained even when not in school.

    #1466357

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    T22T: My sons wear colored shirts out side of yeshiva and they have never been asked about it or spoken to by their RY. As for girls schools, I know the Mrs. Press from Prospect Park does call in girls and speak to them about what they are wearing outside of school even though they are not required to wear their uniforms off hours.

    #1466368

    Phil
    Participant

    “Could you imagine Rav Moshe or Rav Chaim in a blue shirt?”

    Joseph,

    Only a nasty troll could imagine Rav Moshe or Rav Chaim judging someone for wearing a blue shirt.

    #1466359

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    It’s getting hard for me to believe this isn’t trolling.

    What Shopping and I said is that people who wear colored shirts (in certain communities) are the types who would say, “I think white shirt society is stupid and I want nothing to do with it.” Then, you guys offer a rebuttal by saying basically exactly that verbatim! What would you have us say? Thanks for proving our point?

    Shopping and I both expressed that we wish the color didn’t matter, and neither of us have claimed that there’s a “Torah source.”

    Look at it like this. Say you live in a city in Turkey where Jews wear kippahs and Muslims wear fez’s. If you wear a fez, even though it’s a legitimate head covering, it will make everyone think your Muslim, which you don’t want. You aren’t shallow for wanting to avoid people thinking you’re something that you aren’t! And, don’t anyone dare bring in chukas hagoyim because you know that’s not the point of the analogy.

    Who are the judgmental ones here? You colored shirters are calling us “shallow” and “judgmental” because of our shirt preference. The reality is, that’s always how it goes. The religious left (just like the political left) is just soooo tolerant and accepting of everyone that they have to insult everyone even slightly not like them, and somehow you guys will never see the irony.

    #1466387

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Could you imagine Rav Moshe or Rav Chaim in a blue shirt?”

    Sure, because if you google Reb Moshe you can easily see a picture of him in a striped shirt.

    #1466395

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @Takes2toTango:
    Your basically saying that one must cave in to social pressures if they live in that society. Thats no different then saying that you must live up to the joneses and the Goldstein’s.
    This concept of living up to societies is actually the recipes for a downfall. I truly hop you find a striped white shirt guy.
    ————————-
    1. The torah tells us to go with the rov, with the rabim, the majoirty.
    2. It also tells us to go along with society, yes to a point that’s why we have rabanim and we know if something is against the torah etc, and it’s a fine line.
    3. Your argument is just not valid. Is a doctor who wear a wear coat “keeping up with the other doctors”? No! It’s his uniform. iT’S a dress code.

    And like DY said just now, and I SAID myself earlier, as a woman I also have to wear the dress code. Nowadays people are anti society, telling us what to do. Isn’t it funny how you give this argument of “keeping up with everyone else” when those same people who wear colored shirts to NOT keep up with everyone else are wearing the latest fashions in colored shirts, socks etc.

    Do you know of people wearing colored shirts, that think they should not be a part of a greater society and don’t with to follow any latest fashion trends too? I only know of one such person, a good friend of mine, and bezrat Hashem she will find a bochur like that too…but I don’t see very many…

    Takes2toTango, you think ONLY yeshiva bochurim get called in? When I was in high school I got yelled out by my principal when I ran into her at the local day camp I worked at and I was wearing a plain black skirt down to the floor. It wasn’t tight, it DEFINITELY covered my knees, it wasn’t bright, or eye catching, but she told me I shouldn’t wear it cuz it wasn’t dignified and didn’t look like a proper bais yaakov. (Long skirts are a big no-no is bais yaakovs).

    Don’t act like you hold a monopoly on frustration with society’s rules.
    And even secular society has social rules, a sort of uniform, etc….

    #1466443

    Phil
    Participant

    Neville,

    Wearing a white shirt doesn’t make you shallow but judging and stereotyping someone for wearing a colored shirt most certainly does.

    #1466563

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Wearing a white shirt doesn’t make you shallow but judging and stereotyping someone for wearing a colored shirt most certainly does.”

    Ah, I see, but it’s perfectly fine to judge and stereotype those who wear white?

    Where are you seeing the judging here? You’re talking to a guy who used to live in a place where nobody was white-only, and I didn’t wear only white back then. I moved to a place where wearing colored shirts makes a certain statement, and I chose not to turn the blind eye to this reality. What’s the difficulty here? Do you guys deny that these places exist? Would you like to walk down the road in Lakewood or Boro Park with a kippah and a fire engine red shirt and tell me nobody is going to notice?

    #1466592

    Phil
    Participant

    Neville,

    It’s every bit as shallow to judge someone who wears a white shirt as being intolerant as it is to judge someone who wears a colored shirt as being “leftern” (your word).

    People have every right to notice the clothing that someone else is wearing but they’re not free to judge and stereotype the person if they’re not violating halacha. The fact that this happens in certain places is not to their credit.

    #1466578

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    ….Would you like to walk down the road in Lakewood or Boro Park with a kippah and a fire engine red shirt and tell me nobody is going to notice?
    ——————-
    Walking down the street with a fire engine red even on a society of colored would cause people to look and judge. Just like if a rebbele who wears all white walks down 13th av on a regular shabbos would raise eye brows. Maybe the rebbele should stop wearing all ehite and dresd like a regular chsid so he doesnt stick out!
    Stop using extreme examples and stick to the subject to throw everyone off.

    #1466715

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    1. The torah tells us to go with the rov, with the rabim, the majoirty.
    2. It also tells us to go along with society, yes to a point that’s why we have rabanim and we know if something is against the torah etc, and it’s a fine line.
    ————————-
    Sorry mam but rov / majority does not apply to a mihag shtus/ מנהג שטות.

    #1466719

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not a minhag shtus, because it’s not a minhag at all. It’s a cultural norm, and perhaps a policy in some yeshivos.

    You’re entitled to think it’s a shtus to make a norm or policy out of it (and I’m entitled to disagree), but don’t call it what it isn’t.

    #1466834

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I think the advantage to being different in this case is it lets the bochrim feel like outward appearances are not that important and to focus on the inner you so you dont become a gaavanik , in other words when it comes to bettering yourself you only compete with yourself and not try to worry about the joneses and their norms.

    #1466828

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    So I assume you also don’t believe in following any work code or any other cultural norm?
    So I assume you walk down the street and don’t ask people how they are unless you actually want and care to hear an answer, and you won’t ask someone that in passing where there actually isn’t enough time to give an answer but it’s still a norm to ask.

    Do you keep your hair short? Isn’t that a society norm? Why don’t you dye is purple? Or a natural color even?
    Why can’t men wear jewlery? Didn’t they do so in the time of tanach?

    I could go on and on…..

    #1466824

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I hate to use this analogy but just wondering if you were offered a job paying $200,000/year and where you were only allowed to wear solid black/blue/grey suits and white shirts, would you turn down the offer?

    DY: I agree that it is not a minhag. At the same time it may be a mishegas. But a yeshiva is allowed to set a policy even if one disagrees with it. You have a right not to send to that yeshiva. My oldest switched to the main Chafetz Chaim branch for his sophomore year; not because of the colored shirts but it was the yeshiva we thought he would find hatzlacha in his learning. We thank HKBH for instilling us with the insight to make that decision as it has turned out to be a good decision.

    As to YTY switching policy, I do not recall that any other Brooklyn yeshiva putting pressure on them to change. They decided on their own what to do.

    #1466881

    TheGoq
    Participant

    When you are out of the “norm” you are looked down upon this teaches you humility and you remember that feeling when you reach out to others not in the norm and you are able to have a level footing when approaching them.

    #1466903

    laskern
    Participant

    It’s hard on the parents to keep it clean and wrinkle free. I don’t remember going to the Yeshiva that they insisted on it. Any light straight color should be acceptable.

    #1466947

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    laskern: It is also easier on the parents to shop.

    #1466965

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I hate to use this analogy but just wondering if you were offered a job paying $200,000/year and where you were only allowed to wear solid black/blue/grey suits and white shirts, would you turn down the offer?”
    No, because it’s not a halachic issue. I could see Chassidim answering differently, and I’m not about to insult them over it.

    “Sorry mam but rov / majority does not apply to a mihag shtus”
    I wonderful example of the tolerance and non-judgmental nature that oozes from the colored shirt community.

    iac: I didn’t say “leftern” as an insult. If there’s a more fitting term that you’d prefer to use, then I would be happy to do so. The point is, the colored shirts represent a side of the community that isn’t MY community. I’m not about to dress in a way that will cause people to think I’m something that I’m not just because a few forum posters are offended by my outfit choice. If you thought you looked good in a shtreimel, would you wear one even though you aren’t Chassdishe knowing it would make everyone think you are?

    #1467008

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sigh.

    I’m just utterly amazed at the arguing over whether or not wearing a colored shirt makes you a better Jew, a ben Torah or anything else.

    My yiras HaShem, my avodas HaShem, my Shmiras HaMitzvos and my emunah are not affected by the color of my shirt. My emunah does not grow when I wear one of my white shirts. It does not shrink when I wear one of my blue shirts. The mitzvos I observe does not change whether I’m wearing white, blue, teal, maroon or purple (and yes, I own and wear button down shirts in all those colors). I don’t learn any more or less Torah based on the color and the quality of my learning does not change. My connection to HKBH is the same regardless of what shirt I’m wearing.

    If you want to think less of me because I wear colored shirts (or more of me if you see me wearing a white shirt), that’s your problem, not mine — and it’s really a silly thing to judge a person’s worth upon.

    The Wolf

    #1467017

    Chofetz Chaim 1
    Participant

    Dear iacisrmma,

    The reason why he wears white shirts, is probably because he is the rav of a shul.

    #1467037

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    NC: So then why are you so outraged over a yeshiva wanting it’s students to wear white shirts if it is not a halachic issue? The yeshivos are not saying it is a halachic issue. People who don’t like there decision are trying to impute a halachic reason. It might be a hashkafic issue (and I agree that a white shirt really doesn’t prove anything). My only point is that if the yeshiva has a policy and you don’t like that policy you have every right not to enroll your child in that yeshiva. Some of my son’s attended yeshiva in Brooklyn; some not. If the yeshivos had a white shirt policy we adhered to it. I did not look for a yeshiva that only allowed white shirts. Nor is it a question that I ask shadchanim about potential sons-in-law.

    BTW, I never made any comment on the term “leftern” so I have no idea what you are talking about.

    #1467092

    Phil
    Participant

    Neville ,

    Nobody is saying that you should wear a colored shirt and nobody is saying that yeshivos can’t set their own dress codes. However, it’s wrong that some negatively stereotype those who wear colored shirts. It’s also wrong that a yeshiva that doesn’t normally mandate white shirts is compelled to do so because otherwise they’d be negatively stereotyped.

    #1467110

    Joseph
    Participant

    Has anyone yet explained why the vast majority of Gedolim and rabbonim basically stick to white shirts? Isn’t it silly of all of those leaders to avoid non-white shirts?

    #1467115

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Wolfish Musings, I agree wholeheartedly.

    #1467141

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “So then why are you so outraged over a yeshiva wanting it’s students to wear white shirts if it is not a halachic issue?”

    You clearly have me confused with another poster. I go to a Yeshiva with colored shirts. I’m not sure where you thought I expressed outrage.

    I’m not going to comment like shopping that I agree with Wolf, even though I do on the surface, because this is just another derailing of the point in an attempt to accuse us to “judging people negatively” for their colored shirts. When I see a guy in a shtreimel and say he’s Chassidish, I’m not “judging him negatively.” Likewise, when I see a colored shirt family walking down the road, you can tell they’re more “balhabatish” or modern. It’s not a negative thing to accept reality instead of turning the blind eye. As Shopping has pointed out, it’s actually halchically mandated for women to do so.

    #1467213

    Phil
    Participant

    “Has anyone yet explained why the vast majority of Gedolim and rabbonim basically stick to white shirts? Isn’t it silly of all of those leaders to avoid non-white shirts?”

    Joseph,

    Has anyone yet explained why the vast majority of Gedolim and rabbonim basically stick to wearing “long”? Isn’t it silly of all of those leaders to avoid regular jackets? This thread isn’t about regular people apishly copying the Gedolim, or perhaps you think we should all treat you like a gadol?

    #1467349

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Neville: Ok, I have gone back and reread your posts and apologize as I was totally misreading what you were writing. It is sometimes difficult to figure out who is responding to who.

    I believe we may be on the “same page”. I don’t believe that anyone should be judged by their preferences in shirt color.

    #1467405

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    He could have worded it more respectfully, but Phil actually has a point about the long coats.

    There are certain things gedolim do, in particular in how they dress, that we specifically avoid emulating. The Rosh Yeshiva wearing a long coat doesn’t mean all the bocherim should, in fact it means the opposite. Obviously, it would be absurd to suggest that white shirts fall into this category. But, I’m assuming Phil’s point was “we don’t always strive to dress exactly like the gedolim; sometimes we even avoid it.” He’s right.

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