The Chofetz Chaim mesorah is great

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  • #1464113

    I feel there is no issue with wearing color shirts (shirts means nothing) they have better middos anyway

    #1464140

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chofetz Chaim yeshiva in Brooklyn requires white. Brooklyn is held to a higher standard.

    #1464149

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Brooklyn is on a much lower level. That’s why they need white shirts.

    Queens and the branches are on a much higher level, so they don’t need to worry about shtusim.

    #1464153

    Joseph
    Participant

    “That’s why they need white shirts.”

    You’re saying that white is a higher level.

    #1464159

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I’m saying you stupid Brooklyn people need some made up shtus to make you feel good about yourselves.

    #1464161

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as the mesorah to wear blue, I think that goes all the way back to Korach.

    #1464176

    icemelter
    Participant

    cant believe the mods let you use that word of profanity

    #1464445

    The little I know
    Participant

    Sadly, our generation has adopted the standard that the clothes make the man. For anyone that has studied Torah, there are countless references to the contrary.

    Chassidus does give ample basis to the influence of chitzoniyus on pnimiyus. However, to be defined by the choice of clothing is beyond anything Torah recommends. רחמנא ליבא בעי is a clear reference to the ultimate being the internal. The cloak of honor, when incongruent with the internal is what was described by Shlomo Hamelech – נזם זהב באף חזיר.

    The dress codes in yeshivos may be based on a good idea, but they have achieved a momentum of their own, and no longer are directed at the growth of the talmid. Just visit the photos of many of today’s Gedolei Yisroel as they dressed in Europe as talmidim in yeshivos there. If a talmid today wore those clothes, he would be expelled on sight. Can someone show me what changed? Sure, the streets are not the same, and our generation has its share of contemporary nisyonos. Where are the budding Gedolei Yisroel that emerge from this dress code controlled generation? Will they become great because of their dedication to Torah and Avodas Hashem, or will they attribute their greatness to having worn a white shirt from age 13?

    I am anxious to hear others’ thoughts on this.

    #1464483

    gilda
    Participant

    Show me a serious Ben Torah in colored shirts no Mayer where they live

    #1464490

    Meno
    Participant

    Show me a serious Ben Torah in colored shirts no Mayer where they live

    I know plenty of serious Bnei Torah who wear colored shirts. And there is a mayor where they live. I even know one that is named Mayer.

    #1464526

    The little I know
    Participant

    gilda:

    Show us all a serious comment. Please.

    #1464542

    gilda
    Participant

    I can’t see all the words so Mayer was instead of matter

    #1464570

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim branch in Brooklyn is called Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel. The change to white shirts was only after long discussions within the hanhallah of the yeshiva as there was a huge disagreement. They went to the Rosh Hayeshiva, Rabbi Dovis Harris who decided that they may change to white shirts only for 8th grade and above. One of the considerations was that enrollment might suffer if they didn’t change to the white shirt only as most of the other mesivtas (in Brooklyn) already have that policy.

    #1464625

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: 1. That was one of the considerations. What were the other considerations? 2. Why was there a “huge” disagreement? 3. Why did the white side win the argument?

    #1464681

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    1. I don’t know the other considerations. This is the one I was told about.
    2. The opinion of the two leading members of the YTY Hanhallah were split with one wanting to stay with the “colored shirts” and the other wanting the change. That’s why they went to Rabbi Harris.
    3. Ask Rabbi Harris. He made the decision.

    #1464841

    slabodka
    Participant

    “1. I don’t know the other considerations. This is the one I was told about.
    2. The opinion of the two leading members of the YTY Hanhallah were split with one wanting to stay with the “colored shirts” and the other wanting the change. That’s why they went to Rabbi Harris.
    3. Ask Rabbi Harris. He made the decision.”

    I dont believe the above is factually accurate.

    1. The only consideration was that being a “colored shirt” yeshiva in Brooklyn was giving people the impression that it wasn’t a serious place and they were therefore not attracting the “better” boys.
    2. They were all in agreement that the white shirt policy was necessary, but didn’t want to institute it without first getting it “approved” by the Hanhallah in Queens. The Rosh HaYeshiva zt”l never stressed white shirts, so they wanted to speak it over.
    3. The Queens Roshei Yeshiva told them that they weren’t so excited about the idea, but weren’t going to stop them if they felt it was necessary for the continued success of the Yeshiva.

    #1465218

    Joseph
    Participant

    And why do you think the better boys felt discouraged from enrolling in a Yeshiva with colored shirts?

    #1465225

    I personally know for fact that the buchrim that come out of THE REAL CHOFETZ CHAIM YISHEVAS have
    60000% better midos then any other yeshiva in the world. out of Chofetz Chaim come the greatest DOWN TO EARTH SHTIEGERS on the ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM

    P.S. Colored shirts are perfectly permited!!

    #1465227

    THAT’S A STEREOTYPE SHIRTS MEAN NOTHING They are such baal middos as it says “Derech Eretz Kadma L’torah” you can shteig all day but it means nothing without middos first get middos then learn im not saying if you wear a white shirt you cant be a baal middos thats SHEKER i’m just saying chofetz chaim yeshivas focus on that vs other stuff. I know 2 kids in 9th grade in chofetz chaim miami and they both are tzadik gamors and one of them wears white shirts thats all im saying.
    -By HaRav Hagaon Hagoadal Hador Hanorah Hadir Avraham Moshe Halevi Shlita may he live to see mashiach Amen Selah Selah vaed Modim Anachnu laach…..( much nachas )……………………………………………..

    #1465231

    Phil
    Participant

    “And why do you think the better boys felt discouraged from enrolling in a Yeshiva with colored shirts?”

    Joseph,

    Simple. Chofetz Chaim has an unmatched eighty-five year track record of producing Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshivos, Talmedei Chachamim, Mechanchim, Yorei Shamayim and Manhigim, despite the fact that they never mandated white shirts. However, too many people in Brooklyn (and other places) judge others only by the color of their shirt instead of the content of their character, so Rabbi Harris had to reluctantly make an exception for that specific location.

    Nice attempt at trolling.

    #1465238

    crum is thoughtful
    Participant

    Joseph the reason why people felt uncomfortable enrolling their kids in tiferes yisroel is because of stupid Brooklyn mishegas that people care about externals to much! There are certain yeshivas were people wear white shirts and have there tsitsis out but don’t learn a blasted word! The CC yeshivas also in general cater from out of town communities and therefore for recruiting reasons allow white shirts as they may scare potential more modern families from getting involved in the yeshiva.

    #1465239

    Matan1
    Participant

    Probably because people care more about looks than learning.

    #1465260

    Joseph
    Participant

    “The CC yeshivas also in general cater from out of town communities and therefore for recruiting reasons allow white shirts as they may scare potential more modern families from getting involved in the yeshiva.”

    Are you assuming that families in OOT communities are more modern than in-town families?

    #1465347

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’m confused, it’s not like they wear davka blue shirts at Chofetz Chaim right? Most of the guys are still wearing white shirts I assume. They just allow other shirt colors?

    Even by the pro-white-shirt argument, allowing a diversity in shirt color would just allow you to gauge the seriousness of a given bochur. If you make them wear white shirts, how can you tell who the REAL white shirters are, and who are just doing it for the dress code?

    #1465396

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, I think you’ve heard of peer pressure.

    #1465334

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I cannot speak for the USA, but I do know white shirts are of a great deal of importance in many places in Israel, it’s a part of society. If you live in Yerushalayim you have no way of being accepted into any school, in a colored shirt.

    Ok, I never said I wanted to spefically live in Yerushalayim. I’m comfortable living in many different areas in Israel as long as thee’s people in the community whom share my hashkafa and values. I’m also looking to marry a bochur who doesn’t have any major issues with the chareidi world. No, you don’t have to agree with every part of it, but someone who understand it’s the bigger picture, is willing to sacrifice, and isn’t looking for fights…

    And it’s funny how all the boys I meet that where colored shirts, are either not comfortable with it, not comfortable with people wearing white shirts, and lots of them still carry anger towards those people and the society in general.

    So, if you find me someone wearing colored shirts who has worked out his anger issues with society, and knows we can only live in speicifc cities or neighborhoods, I’ll take a look.

    #1465488

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Neville: Most Mesivtas in Brooklyn (over the last 20 years) have adopted a white-shirt only policy. With the exception of YTY, the branches in the Chafetz Chaim Network still allow the bachurim to wear colored shirts (blue, grey..). Is it a Brooklyn/Lakewood mishegas? Probably, but it certainly makes it easier on my wife to shop for my son’s. One of my son’s did attend Mesivta at the main branch in Queens. Today he is in chinuch and only wears white shirts, even on his days off.

    #1465492

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I should have stated that my son does not live in the NYC area.

    #1465505

    The little I know
    Participant

    Shopping:

    You have either drunk from the koolaid, or you are saying that the “value system” of white shirts is senseless, but we’re stuck with it. The reality is that it makes no sense at all, is arbitrary, and is believed to have magical powers that are associated with kedusha. This is completely untrue. I will dare anyone to provide sources in Torah for this mishugaas.

    I wear a white shirt every day, and do not own others. I do not believe that my shirt color defines me as anything at all. Rather, my mission in life is to be the best Yid I can, maximizing Torah, Avodah, and Gemilus Chassodim. If I need to somehow assess someone, my yardstick is never connected to attire, which tells me nothing beyond the choices of stores. I need to know character.

    #1465506

    Phil
    Participant

    “And it’s funny how all the boys I meet that where colored shirts, are either not comfortable with it, not comfortable with people wearing white shirts, and lots of them still carry anger towards those people and the society in general.”

    Shopping,

    Most people in the USA aren’t so shallow that they look down on those who wear colored shirts, so it’s not an issue that divides and causes bitterness. Hopefully things will remain that way over here and you should find your zivug over there!

    #1465543

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    it’s not about shallowness…
    it’s about the society.

    #1465571

    LAmother
    Participant

    I’m happy reading all this cos I just transferred my 9th grade son from a. Reg yeshiva where for specific reasons he was miserable to a chofetz chaim where he is thriving. And the rebbeim, I can’t even tell you what tsadikim they are. Iyh my son will have excellent middos, love learning and besras has hem be a talmud chacham too

    #1465596

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    TLIK: Koheles 9:8 בְּכָל־עֵ֕ת יִֽהְי֥וּ בְגָדֶ֖יךָ לְבָנִ֑ים

    #1465602

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Shopping put it beautifully.

    It’s not about looking down on people who wear non-white shirts. I will tell you, behind internet anonymity, that I really don’t think shirt color should matter and I wish it didn’t, but the reality is that it does socially. Nobody so far here has asserted that it matters halachically, so stop pretending we are saying that. Where I learn and where I live, some people wear white shirts and some people wear colored. I wear white, not because I think it’s a halachic issue, but because wearing colored would cause people to associate me with the leftern hemisphere of the community.

    Now, pro-colored folks, go ahead and attack me for being mean for not wanting to be associated with the religious left, because we all know that’s what this is really about. That, my friends, was exactly Shopping613’s point.

    #1465671

    Phil
    Participant

    ” I wear white, not because I think it’s a halachic issue, but because wearing colored would cause people to associate me with the leftern hemisphere of the community.”

    Thankfully, for the most part the USA doesn’t suffer from the societal shallowness of other places and one isn’t automatically pegged as “leftern” (whatever that is) simply for wearing a colored shirt.

    #1465910

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Neville: On a whole, people do not look down on those who don’t wear white shirts. Most children who attend these yeshivos with the white shirt only policy have fathers who wear colored shirts (including me). When not in school my son’s had their choice. If they wanted colored shirts, fine, white shirts fine. Once a school has a white-shirt only policy then that is what you have to wear to school. If a parent feels that this rule is not good for their son, then by all means please send your son to a yeshiva where he can wear colored shirts.
    At least one mesivta (in the 1990’s) that I know of changed because the bochurim asked the hanhallah if they can change to a white shirt policy. 40 years ago when I attended mesivta, we were allowed to wear any colored button down collared shirt. The rabbeim only wore white shirts.
    You and “shopping” may think that it is shallow thinking to have this policy……and you may be right. The yeshiva though has every right to set their own rules and policies.

    #1465927

    The little I know
    Participant

    iacisrmma:

    Koheles 9:8 בְּכָל־עֵ֕ת יִֽהְי֥וּ בְגָדֶ֖יךָ לְבָנִ֑ים

    Cute. Now let’s address the actual message of that posuk.

    Start with Rashi, based on the gemora (Shabbos 153a) that explains this is about behavior, and it refers to the beauty of the expected way that we are to present ourselves. Not at all about attire.

    Targum focuses directly on white referring to cleansing from sin. Several meforshim (Akeidas Yitzchok, R’ Aharon of Karlin, R’ Mendel of Kotzk) describe this as a metaphor, where one is donned with pure white clothing, and is also balancing a vessel of oil on his head. The slightest deviation from being perfectly straight and steady (referring to one’s focus on Yiras Shomayim) will lead to the oil spilling over everything and making a mess out of the clothing. Once again, the message about clothing is just a metaphor.

    I return to my original question. Is there a Torah source for wearing white shirts?

    #1465928

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: “One of my son’s did attend Mesivta at the main branch in Queens. Today he is in chinuch and only wears white shirts, even on his days off.”

    Why does your son only wear white? I thought white was just a mishugas and non-white is just as fine. Why doesn’t your son go to his chinuch job in a blue shirt?

    #1465930

    This argument of white shirts is against what we (jewish ppl) stand for. we are all yidden and that is that. to judge
    one on a simple detail of what one’s shirt color is!? that is the opposite of achdus.

    #1465939

    Chofetz Chaim 1
    Participant

    I personally know someone who started in a non chofetz yeshiva, and then switched .to a CC yeshiva There is a reason why today he is a known chofetz Chaim rabbi.

    #1465948

    I Feel This Thread Is Causing Way too Much Lashon Harah My intention was to shed a light on the world of how good the Chofetz Chaim Mesorah Is and i Feel it Caused way Too much Lashon Harah I would Appreciate it if the Lashon Harah Stopped on this thread
    Thank You so Much –By HaRav Hagaon Hagoadal Hador Hanorah Hadir Avraham Moshe Halevi Shlita may he live to see mashiach Amen Selah Selah vaed Modim Anachnu laach…..( much nachas )……………………………………………..

    #1465985

    apushatayid
    Participant

    …בְּכָל־עֵ֕ת יִֽהְי֥וּ בְגָדֶ֖יךָ לְבָנִ֑ים

    ….Anyone know where I can buy white pant, maybe buy a good humor man uniform so I can be dressed in white from head to toe in fulfillment of this passuk?

    #1466113

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    The little I know:

    In an ideal world, in my opinion it shouldn’t matter.
    But it does, that’s reality.

    Your clothes send a message across, and I know this very much as a girl. There’s things I can’t wear that are actually tzniyus, because they send the wrong message. They send a message that I belong to a different crowd, or that I’m an “edgy” type of girl, etc. As much as you boys think you have problems with clothing, us girls have it much worse. It’s not between to articles, we have to choose all the time, and ask our selves ALL the time over any accesory, article of clothing, shoes…what message does this send the world?

    And to deny that part of reality is basically living denial. I’m sorry.

    Now, there ARE places where white and colored shirts don’t send different messages, AND if you live in such a place, great! But to live in a place where it’s a fact that the color of your shirt will send a message, and you think that “it’s stupid, I don’t want to be a part of that, I’ll wear what I want, and people shouldn’t judge me” is ridiculous. If your motto is “I think it’s ridiculous, but I resepect the society and their standards, and the price I am choosing to pay is to not be a part of the mainstream society, and I’m not angry or upset at them or my choice” is another story completely.

    Be mature. Be honest with yourself.
    Be realistic.

    These are things I’m looking for in a husband.
    I never said yo have to like it, agree with it, but be realistic, be honest, don’t be in denial, and make decisions.

    #1466167

    The little I know
    Participant

    Shopping:

    You are paraphrasing my point precisely. I wear white shirts, and “behave”. I happen to prefer wearing white shirts. However, not for a moment do I believe it defines me. My character, I hope, I can attribute to the input I received through my years on how to be an Oveid Hashem, not the choice of store or manufacturer of my shirts. My preference of apparel is my personal choice, and it does not define me. But then, it really shouldn’t matter, because I am not the one that dictates public policy. I do not impose anything as a “value” on anyone.

    There seems to be no question, as you put eloquently, that colors of shirts really mean nothing. It is a gross misfortune, as I have also stated eloquently, that the public finds these trivial things to add to the Taryag mitzvos, and allows these to identify whether someone is “frum” or a “maamin”. And none of us are willing to take the plunge and proclaim that the emperor has no clothes (pun not intended). So we all know it is a stupid policy, but we play along with it, since we do not have a bit of control to stop the madness. I think we both agree on this.

    I was thinking that the meforshim on Shulchan Aruch (Be’er Heiteiv, Mishna Berura) bring down in Hilchos Shabbos that the Ari Zal stated that one should wear 4 white garments lekovod Shabbos. If one wears white all week, what is different that indicates kovod Shabbos? Just asking.

    #1466171

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “it’s not about shallowness…
    it’s about the society.”

    Society can be shallow. Anyone involved with shidduchim, whether for themselves, their child or as a shadchan knows this 1st hand.

    I learned in yeshiva (and even bichavrusa with one) with several Rabbeim of YTY, they all wore white shirts only on shabbos and yom tov (or for occasions that called for “shabbos clothes – such as a simcha or a date). Now, they would lose their job faster than you can say “get out”, if they wore blue shirts, they wore in their 20s.

    #1466172

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: If your personal preference of attire happened to be a T-Shirt and jeans, that’s what you’d wear as that would be no different than a white shirt and dark pants?

    #1466181

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    February 9, 2018 6:30 am at 6:30 am#1466113REPLY
    Shopping613 🌠Participant
    The little I know:

    In an ideal world, in my opinion it shouldn’t matter.
    But it does, that’s reality.

    Your clothes send a message across, and I know this very much as a girl. There’s things I can’t wear that are actually tzniyus, because they send the wrong message. They send a message that I belong to a different crowd, or that I’m an “edgy” type of girl, etc. As much as you boys think you have problems with clothing, us girls have it much worse. It’s not between to articles, we have to choose all the time, and ask our selves ALL the time over any accesory, article of clothing, shoes…what message does this send the world?

    And to deny that part of reality is basically living denial. I’m sorry.

    Now, there ARE places where white and colored shirts don’t send different messages, AND if you live in such a place, great! But to live in a place where it’s a fact that the color of your shirt will send a message, and you think that “it’s stupid, I don’t want to be a part of that, I’ll wear what I want, and people shouldn’t judge me” is ridiculous. If your motto is “I think it’s ridiculous, but I resepect the society and their standards, and the price I am choosing to pay is to not be a part of the mainstream society, and I’m not angry or upset at them or my choice” is another story completely.

    Be mature. Be honest with yourself.
    Be realistic.

    These are things I’m looking for in a husband.
    I never said yo have to like it, agree with it, but be realistic, be honest, don’t be in denial, and make decisions.
    —————————
    Your basically saying that one must cave in to social pressures if they live in that society. Thats no different then saying that you must live up to the joneses and the Goldstein’s.
    This concept of living up to societies is actually the recipes for a downfall. I truly hop you find a striped white shirt guy.

    #1466184

    As you can see from my YWN name, I’m delighted to not be a part of the Brooklyn nonsense. And I’m a huge supporter of the CC mesorah. I’ve known so many who have gone through their system, from Mesivta through being some of the leading Rebbeim today, and their sterling middos stands out. They don’t look down on Jews who are different, which is probably why they all excel in Kiruv. The “colored shirts” that you’re all hocking about are hardly bright red. The dress code in the Mesivta specifically states that colored means things like light blue, pale grey, no loud patterns. Brooklyn is just one branch, and the RY had to accommodate the attitude of the potential parent body. By the way, the post “branching” Beis Medrash and Kollel guys tend to wear white shirts anyway, so what’s the big deal here?

    #1466227

    Joseph
    Participant

    “By the way, the post “branching” Beis Medrash and Kollel guys tend to wear white shirts anyway, so what’s the big deal here?”

    Why? Why don’t they regularly wear colored shirts?

    #1466333

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I grew up in a Young Israel where the Rav was a musmach of CC and he only wore white shirts. You don’t like the Brooklyn/Lakewood mishegas….fine. Nobody is telling you to like it. I am not turning away potential shidduchim over colored shirts. The key to this discussion is that if a yeshiva has a rule then you follow the rule. For those of us who live in Brooklyn we know the policies and we accept them. I just wonder if the hanhallah in the areas outside of Brooklyn wear colored shirts. If not, why not?

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