Waiting For An Older Sibling

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  • #592177

    blinky
    Participant

    Im curious what the CR thinks about someone waiting for an older sibling in regards to shidduchim.

    #1164638

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    In my opinion, no.

    Each person finds their bashert at a different time and no one should be help up because of “order.”

    However, if your sibling is really close in age, I think its a nice idea to give them a short while (like 6 months) before you start dating. Not necessary though.

    #1164639

    squeak
    Participant

    zugt Lovon, “Lo na’aseh kein b’mikoimeinu“.

    So it depends on whether your minhagim shtam from Lovon.

    #1164640

    emoticon613
    Member

    it’s very painful for an older sibling to watch a younger one get married before them. so it’s really impossible for anyone else to judge whether or not it’s right. in addition, i think this is one of those things that goes according to the family’s custom, so again, no one can judge.

    that having been said, i think it’s not such a good thing. i would allow my younger siblings to go before if it came to that, c”v. it’s a chaval for all the other siblings to be held up just cuz the first one hasn’t found his/her bashert yet!

    i actually have a teacher who got married at thirty. before she even met her husband, she MADE her little sister’s shidduch!! now that’s an extreme, but i thought it was a good story. 🙂

    #1164641

    i love coffe
    Participant

    I believe that the younger sibling should wait a little while till the older sibling gets married.

    If a little while takes longer than a “little while” and the younger sibling could be missing good shiduchim then the younger sibling should start dating and also get his/her life moving.

    Everyone is different and no one should be pressured to getting married because he/she has a younger sibling waiting to get married after.

    I know someone who was going on shiduchim dates and couldnt find any good match. She was already in her 30’s.

    She comes from a very big family and is one of the oldest. Meanwhile, everyone else under her who were in marriagable age werent able to get married yet. They were also getting older and by the time this person got married it became harder for everyone else to get married.

    Dont forget that everybody is different and everyone should get married when the time is right and not wait because…

    The younger sibings also shouldnt pressure the older sibling to get married. (everyone is different) maybe the older sibling isnt ready yet or is having a hard time to find someone. Everyone should be supportive whatever the case is.

    #1164642

    bpt
    Participant

    12 month max.

    Besides, the zechus of being mevater your “self” may be the tipping point that breaks the logjam.

    #1164643

    blinky
    Participant

    I think that if a girl is waiting for an older brother-she does not have to wait as its fine for a boy to get married a little older (24,25..) more than it is for a girl. Regarding an older sister i think they should discuss it together what they think, and whatever they decide.

    #1164644

    oomis
    Participant

    JMO, for what it’s worth – younger siblings should not have to lose out on their happiness just because their older sib was not as fortunate to find his/her bashert yet. My younger sister got married five years before I did. My youngest daughter got married before my older daughters who are not yet married. Had she not done so four years ago, I would have been deprived of the pleasure of my two year old granddaughter’s company every day.

    That being said, I am also against allowing a younger sibling to date at a very early age (i.e. 18), when there are older FEMALE sibs in the parsha who are not married. It won’t kill the younger sib to wait another couple of years to give the older one a chance to meet someone first. I know from experience that as happy as you are for that younger sib, it is painful to deal with all the thoughtless commentary by people who don’t know what “tact” means.

    #1164645

    m12345
    Member

    Oomis1105, can you please provide some examples of what would be tactful, versus not? I have several friends and relatives who are around 30 with siblings younger then them who are engaged or married and I just don’t know the proper things to say/do.

    Thanks!

    #1164646

    blinky
    Participant

    Why do you have to say anything? Just don’t talk about it. Talk about other things as long as you are TALKING! Don’t shut them out bec. you are afraid you will somehow offend them.

    #1164647

    aries2756
    Participant

    IMHO, the question really needs to be answered between the siblings. An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them. We all know that each shidduch happens “b’zmano”. Everyone at the right time, with the right person. We know this because so many shidduchim are do overs with the same people but it just wasn’t the right time the first or even the second (some times) around when they dated. So the opinions of others really doesn’t count. Siblings need to love each other enough and care about each other enough to be sensitive to each other’s feelings and needs, give each other enough of a chance and then wish each other best and allow Hashem to do what he does best.

    #1164648

    i know of a few families who have a few girls lined up. i think that if they are relatively young, meaning they just came back from sem, and a girl a year or 2 older and than maybe one even older, they should wait. It’s incredibly painful to watch a younger sibling get married , (especially if its both girls/boys, i don’t think the issue is when they are different genders.) Once the girls are getting older, i think they should start dating. I know of a story where the parents started looking for the younger one , and b”h the older one got engaged first anyway.

    i know of a different situation, where the parents were “extremely ” makpid on not skipping. They had a set of identical twins who were soooo alike in every way. There’s no way to know which one should go first, the only way to do it was, the oldest (it’s twins, so by like 10 minutes?!)

    #1164649

    bygirl10
    Member

    this summer a friend of mine had a sister that got married before her older sister was engaged or married. many people were saying oh my gosh its so sad for the older sister but you know 2 months later the younger sister’s husband fixed up the older sister with one of his good friends. Imagine C”V if her parents did not let the younger daughter date or get married to the guy.

    #1164650

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I watched my younger brother by 2 years get married before me. It really did not bother me at all. Now, younger guys in yeshiva- that’s a different story.

    #1164651

    oomis
    Participant

    “Oomis1105, can you please provide some examples of what would be tactful, versus not? I have several friends and relatives who are around 30 with siblings younger then them who are engaged or married and I just don’t know the proper things to say/do.

    Thanks! “

    Never say the following:

    “Don’t worry, dear. Yout turn will come, too.”

    “Someone even BETTER is in store for you!”

    “Maybe you should try a dating service.”

    “This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)

    Personally, I think a simple mazel tov is sufficient to say to the older unmarried sib. Maybe (depending on the personality of the single, I might also say, ” May Hashem bless you with much simcha.” Sometimes the less said, the better. IF the single sib engages in a conversation about his or her status, then you can judge whether or not to say words of chizuk. But see the above list and DO NOT EVER SAY THAT TO ANYONE. It really hurts them. I have a relative who couldn;t even stand to hear people say, “Im Yirtzeh Hashem by you.” When nothing is happening and one is in emotional pain, it is very hard to hear the very real bracha in that expression.

    #1164652

    m12345
    Member

    Thanks for the insight Oomis.

    #1164653

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them.

    Are you saying that halchically, if so I would like a source.

    Otherwise, I see NO reason that a younger sibling needs to ask permission. If the older sibling says no, then the younger one has to wait? It gives power to the older sibling that the older sibling should NOT have.

    #1164654

    An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them

    if this is a rule, what are the parameters?

    if the older sibling is still single at age 50 years (it happens, R’L), the younger one still can’t date?

    #1164655

    blinky
    Participant

    SJS- I think that the younger sibling should ask the older sibling if the younger one is still young- (18,19,20.) Its just a certain sensitivity to ask. However if time is really passing than i don’t believe she has to wait.

    #1164656

    Yes blinky i agree.

    even better would be for the older one to take the initiative and tell the younger to go ahead.

    #1164657

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Sensitivity does not mean NEEDS.

    I started dating my husband before my sister had found anyone. We had talked about our engagement before she found anyone. She ended up meeting her ex husband, dating and getting married before we did, but I certainly didn’t ask her.

    #1164658

    blinky
    Participant

    “Sensitivity does not mean NEEDS.”

    Its not a NEED to get married so young. So it is a certain sensitivity to give your older sibling a chance first. But if its going to trample on your needs- like if you are already older, than you don’t have to wait.

    #1164659

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    So if I say that people should wait to get married to finish their education and have a stable job, no one would agree because where is the bitachon?

    But its ok to say you don’t need to get married young if your older sibling hasn’t found anyone, limiting your own chances and prospects.

    Women actually don’t NEED to get married at all. In fact, with the industrial revolution and as womens liberation has progressed, women need men less and less. Perhaps this should be a spinoff thread though.

    #1164660

    Poster
    Member

    It is something that one cannot judge or give opinion unless they are in that situation. Though I do have a cousin that skipped his brother, yes, it was very painful, but they needed diff types of girls. B’chasdei Hashem, the younger brother’s wife was the shadchan for the older brother.

    #1164661

    blinky
    Participant

    “But its ok to say you don’t need to get married young if your older sibling hasn’t found anyone, limiting your own chances and prospects”

    You are missing the point. I explained it before but ill say it again. Someone thats fresh out of seminary does not NEED to get married so young- especially if there is an older unmarried sibling. It wont ruin her chances if she goes out a year or two later- there is no rush. However if a year or two passes and the older sibling is still single- than there is no reason for the younger one to wait bec. it may limit her chances. Again its a personal sensitivity- not everyone feels the same way.

    #1164662

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    If the age gap theory is right, then yes, there is a rush. As a girl gets older, her prospects diminsh because more and more men are married. So when she is 18-19 she can date up to 27 or so. When she is 22 she can also, but she most likely loses out on the 20-21 year olds.

    #1164663

    blinky
    Participant

    I never understood this age gap problem, because so what if boys are marrying younger girls? They are getting married- so that means their bashert was intended to be much younger then them. So that being said- it doesn’t take away any older girls chances bec. the boy was obviously not intended for them.

    please continue the age gap discussion in the new age gap thread: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/musical-chairs-and-shidduchim?view=all

    #1164664

    rebetzin
    Participant

    My younger sister got married before me. It was extremely hard. But it never occurred to me that she should ask permission or mechila. She had her own life to live. Who wants the pressure and the responsibility on their heads that their sibling can not go out?

    If the 2 siblings are very similar and any name that comes up is equally nogea for both, then I agree the older one should go out with him. But otherwise it’s crazy to wait, especially these days when shidduchim is so hard for girls. There are older single girls who are probably still single because they didn’t date during their prime dating age because they were waiting for an older sister.

    #1164665

    blinky
    Participant

    rebetzin- Just curious, how old was your younger sister when she got engaged

    #1164666

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As far as what to say to an older sibling, you really need to just use your brain.

    Very much depends on what your relationship is with the person is.

    If you generally are “daas impaired” (like some people on the potching thread), you should probably say nothing. To anyone. Ever.

    #1164667

    aries2756
    Participant

    Yes, I believe it is. I don’t know where it is written, but I did learn it in school many centuries ago when I was a youngster. So I don’t know if it is written in the Torah, mishneh, etc. Or it was in a sefer written by a RAV. When a family is in such a situation they should ask their own Rav. There are so many situations later in life, such as infertility where questions come up such as “did you hurt anyone in shiduchim that you need to ask mechilah from”. When it comes to shidduchim, marriage, sholom bayis issues, etc., don’t play fast and furious (or foolish). Ask a dependable Rav and do it right. There is no reason why a younger sibling should not ask permission from an older one. If the older sibling is not loving, caring and generous enough to allow the younger sibling to get on with their life and not wait for them, then a Rav should be consulted.

    #1164668

    kapusta
    Participant

    Never say the following:

    “Don’t worry, dear. Yout turn will come, too.”

    “Someone even BETTER is in store for you!”

    “Maybe you should try a dating service.”

    “This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)

    I can beat that. I know someone who was told how terrible her situation was (a view which the person did not share). I think its near the top of all-time stupidest comments.

    About the topic: I think as with most things, there can’t be a blanket statement. A lot depends on the ages/gender and relationship between the siblings. JFTR, this is just an observation on my part, but generally when siblings date at the same time, I find that they get married in order anyway. Just an observation.

    *kapusta*

    #1164669

    rebetzin
    Participant

    blinky – about 22 but she had been dating for a couple of years. Why?

    #1164670

    blinky
    Participant

    Because i beleive that s/o who is already older like 21, 22… does not have to wait for an older sibling, but s/o that is younger than that should have the decency to wait. So you said that your younger sister got married before you- I was just curious how old she was.

    #1164671

    blinky
    Participant

    …”This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)”- Well oomois- in my family, there were a few siblings all in shidduchim (very close in age) and ppl used to tell my parents, “you are not worried- that they are not married yet…?” and they answered, “Why should we be worried we are doing our hishtadlus so this is the way it supposed to be.” Anyway in a short amount of time, a few got married;)

    And i think bec. they were so upbeat about it, we didn’t feel any pressure, or sad about it. A lot is attitiude!

    #1164672

    mybat
    Member

    Well my younger sister got engaged before me.she was 18 and I was 20, I made her shidduch with her husband and although people would say weird comments I didn’t regret it and I was very happy for her. I would never be able to have married a guy like her husband and when I married my hisband I understood the final plan. He’s only 6 months older than me and he’s a BT so I couldn’t have gone out with him before.

    #1164673

    BOSD
    Participant

    When I enterred shidduchim, I had an older sister who was still single. At the time, she was adamant that I had to wait for her. A prominent Rav told my parents that if a really good name came up for me he would speak to her and help her change her mind. Before that ever became an issue, my sister told my mother that she is ok with me going ahead of her. Both of us are still single, so nothing came of it, but I still think of that as an enormously mature and impressive gesture on her part.

    That being said, I am pretty sure that it isn’t really up to us in the end. Hashem will decide when the right time for me and for my sister is, and we can only daven.

    #1164674

    simcha man
    Member

    I’m extremely close with my older sister. I did not want to go ahead of her, but was told that I should start dating. (Many of my friends were married with 2 kids already when I started.) Within the year, my sister B”H met her husband. Two years “into the Parshah,” my younger brother came home from E”Y and was chalishing to begin dating. As painful as it was, I kept saying that I have no right to hold him back from performing the mitzvah.

    My advice to parents with multiple children dating at the same time is to consider the feelings of all those involved. It is very painful, when after accepting the fact that a younger sibling may get married first, and everything is a “big secret” and “hushed” so that the older sibling shouldn’t “feel hurt.” The biggest pain is often the pain of not being informed and finding out “the scoop” from outside sources.

    #1164675

    the.nurse
    Member

    My younger sister got married when I was 21 and she was 19. I never for a second thought that it was my right to tell her not to start dating. Who am I from preventing her from getting married? Why should I have that power? It is Hashem alone who decides who will get married and when. I did not feel jealous or bad that my sister got married first; what is meant for her in life has no connection to what Hashem has in store for me.

    I don’t understand the concept of one sibling ‘not allowing’ another to start dating. To me, that reeks of immaturity and selfishness.

    #1164676

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    I can’t say with certainty, but I believe there are Torah sources for younger siblings to wait (within reason) for an older sibling.

    #1164677

    the.nurse
    Member

    Is there really? I’d love to see it. I’ve seen many people in this thread say there’s a source, but I haven’t anyone actually quote it. Without it, I don’t see how anyone has the right to control someone else’s life in such a major way.

    #1164678

    oomis
    Participant

    Ben Torah, the only Torah “source” that I can recall is the story of Rachel and Leah where the “tzaddik hador” Lavan, justified his tricking Yaakov into marrying Leah by saying it is not done in their circles that the younger sister marry before the elder. If you want to use Lavan as a source…

    That being said – the only idea I can see is that the younger sibling should ask the elder one for her bracha, out of respect for that sibling (based on the halachos of kibud Av, which extends to one’s older siblings).

    #1164679

    aqua blue
    Participant

    I believe if the younger sibling is like 20, 21 then she shouldn’t be running to tell every shadchan that she’s officially in the parsha, but if something comes up and it sounds good then she should go ahead with it. But that doesn’t mean only if it’s the Ravs son etc to actually consider it. I’m talking about any shidduch that comes up that she would date if she didn’t have an older sister.

    #1164680

    oomis
    Participant

    Given the difficulty of making shidduchim today, I believe it would be irresponsible to pass up a shidduch because an older sibling has not met his/her zivug. But it needs to be handled with sensitivity.

    #1164681

    mybat
    Member

    I couldn’t agree with you more oomis.

    #1164682

    zugt Lovon, “Lo na’aseh kein b’mikoimeinu”.

    So it depends on whether your minhagim shtam from Lovon.

    #1164683

    I know someone who waited 7 years for her sister a year older than her to get married. Her sister is divorced and she is not yet married.

    #1164684

    Once it gets to a certain point, it may be that younger sibling may not wait, as they must do their responsibility..

    #1164685

    yes and the younger sister is a great girl… she’s just a little old now

    #1164686

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are different shittas. Some poskim are very strict and hold one must wait for all their older siblings to get married prior to getting married themselves. Another shitta is to only wait for siblings of the same gender.

    In extenuating circumstances the above minhagim can be eased. Others are meikel in general.

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