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Im curious what the CR thinks about someone waiting for an older sibling in regards to shidduchim.
In my opinion, no.
Each person finds their bashert at a different time and no one should be help up because of “order.”
However, if your sibling is really close in age, I think its a nice idea to give them a short while (like 6 months) before you start dating. Not necessary though.
zugt Lovon, “Lo na’aseh kein b’mikoimeinu“.
So it depends on whether your minhagim shtam from Lovon.
it’s very painful for an older sibling to watch a younger one get married before them. so it’s really impossible for anyone else to judge whether or not it’s right. in addition, i think this is one of those things that goes according to the family’s custom, so again, no one can judge.
that having been said, i think it’s not such a good thing. i would allow my younger siblings to go before if it came to that, c”v. it’s a chaval for all the other siblings to be held up just cuz the first one hasn’t found his/her bashert yet!
i actually have a teacher who got married at thirty. before she even met her husband, she MADE her little sister’s shidduch!! now that’s an extreme, but i thought it was a good story. 🙂
I believe that the younger sibling should wait a little while till the older sibling gets married.
If a little while takes longer than a “little while” and the younger sibling could be missing good shiduchim then the younger sibling should start dating and also get his/her life moving.
Everyone is different and no one should be pressured to getting married because he/she has a younger sibling waiting to get married after.
I know someone who was going on shiduchim dates and couldnt find any good match. She was already in her 30’s.
She comes from a very big family and is one of the oldest. Meanwhile, everyone else under her who were in marriagable age werent able to get married yet. They were also getting older and by the time this person got married it became harder for everyone else to get married.
Dont forget that everybody is different and everyone should get married when the time is right and not wait because…
The younger sibings also shouldnt pressure the older sibling to get married. (everyone is different) maybe the older sibling isnt ready yet or is having a hard time to find someone. Everyone should be supportive whatever the case is.
12 month max.
Besides, the zechus of being mevater your “self” may be the tipping point that breaks the logjam.
JMO, for what it’s worth – younger siblings should not have to lose out on their happiness just because their older sib was not as fortunate to find his/her bashert yet. My younger sister got married five years before I did. My youngest daughter got married before my older daughters who are not yet married. Had she not done so four years ago, I would have been deprived of the pleasure of my two year old granddaughter’s company every day.
That being said, I am also against allowing a younger sibling to date at a very early age (i.e. 18), when there are older FEMALE sibs in the parsha who are not married. It won’t kill the younger sib to wait another couple of years to give the older one a chance to meet someone first. I know from experience that as happy as you are for that younger sib, it is painful to deal with all the thoughtless commentary by people who don’t know what “tact” means.
Oomis1105, can you please provide some examples of what would be tactful, versus not? I have several friends and relatives who are around 30 with siblings younger then them who are engaged or married and I just don’t know the proper things to say/do.
Thanks!
IMHO, the question really needs to be answered between the siblings. An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them. We all know that each shidduch happens “b’zmano”. Everyone at the right time, with the right person. We know this because so many shidduchim are do overs with the same people but it just wasn’t the right time the first or even the second (some times) around when they dated. So the opinions of others really doesn’t count. Siblings need to love each other enough and care about each other enough to be sensitive to each other’s feelings and needs, give each other enough of a chance and then wish each other best and allow Hashem to do what he does best.
i know of a few families who have a few girls lined up. i think that if they are relatively young, meaning they just came back from sem, and a girl a year or 2 older and than maybe one even older, they should wait. It’s incredibly painful to watch a younger sibling get married , (especially if its both girls/boys, i don’t think the issue is when they are different genders.) Once the girls are getting older, i think they should start dating. I know of a story where the parents started looking for the younger one , and b”h the older one got engaged first anyway.
i know of a different situation, where the parents were “extremely ” makpid on not skipping. They had a set of identical twins who were soooo alike in every way. There’s no way to know which one should go first, the only way to do it was, the oldest (it’s twins, so by like 10 minutes?!)
this summer a friend of mine had a sister that got married before her older sister was engaged or married. many people were saying oh my gosh its so sad for the older sister but you know 2 months later the younger sister’s husband fixed up the older sister with one of his good friends. Imagine C”V if her parents did not let the younger daughter date or get married to the guy.
I watched my younger brother by 2 years get married before me. It really did not bother me at all. Now, younger guys in yeshiva- that’s a different story.
“Oomis1105, can you please provide some examples of what would be tactful, versus not? I have several friends and relatives who are around 30 with siblings younger then them who are engaged or married and I just don’t know the proper things to say/do.
Thanks! “
Never say the following:
“Don’t worry, dear. Yout turn will come, too.”
“Someone even BETTER is in store for you!”
“Maybe you should try a dating service.”
“This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)
Personally, I think a simple mazel tov is sufficient to say to the older unmarried sib. Maybe (depending on the personality of the single, I might also say, ” May Hashem bless you with much simcha.” Sometimes the less said, the better. IF the single sib engages in a conversation about his or her status, then you can judge whether or not to say words of chizuk. But see the above list and DO NOT EVER SAY THAT TO ANYONE. It really hurts them. I have a relative who couldn;t even stand to hear people say, “Im Yirtzeh Hashem by you.” When nothing is happening and one is in emotional pain, it is very hard to hear the very real bracha in that expression.
Thanks for the insight Oomis.
An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them.
Are you saying that halchically, if so I would like a source.
Otherwise, I see NO reason that a younger sibling needs to ask permission. If the older sibling says no, then the younger one has to wait? It gives power to the older sibling that the older sibling should NOT have.
An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them
if this is a rule, what are the parameters?
if the older sibling is still single at age 50 years (it happens, R’L), the younger one still can’t date?
Yes blinky i agree.
even better would be for the older one to take the initiative and tell the younger to go ahead.
Sensitivity does not mean NEEDS.
I started dating my husband before my sister had found anyone. We had talked about our engagement before she found anyone. She ended up meeting her ex husband, dating and getting married before we did, but I certainly didn’t ask her.
So if I say that people should wait to get married to finish their education and have a stable job, no one would agree because where is the bitachon?
But its ok to say you don’t need to get married young if your older sibling hasn’t found anyone, limiting your own chances and prospects.
Women actually don’t NEED to get married at all. In fact, with the industrial revolution and as womens liberation has progressed, women need men less and less. Perhaps this should be a spinoff thread though.
It is something that one cannot judge or give opinion unless they are in that situation. Though I do have a cousin that skipped his brother, yes, it was very painful, but they needed diff types of girls. B’chasdei Hashem, the younger brother’s wife was the shadchan for the older brother.
If the age gap theory is right, then yes, there is a rush. As a girl gets older, her prospects diminsh because more and more men are married. So when she is 18-19 she can date up to 27 or so. When she is 22 she can also, but she most likely loses out on the 20-21 year olds.
My younger sister got married before me. It was extremely hard. But it never occurred to me that she should ask permission or mechila. She had her own life to live. Who wants the pressure and the responsibility on their heads that their sibling can not go out?
If the 2 siblings are very similar and any name that comes up is equally nogea for both, then I agree the older one should go out with him. But otherwise it’s crazy to wait, especially these days when shidduchim is so hard for girls. There are older single girls who are probably still single because they didn’t date during their prime dating age because they were waiting for an older sister.
As far as what to say to an older sibling, you really need to just use your brain.
Very much depends on what your relationship is with the person is.
If you generally are “daas impaired” (like some people on the potching thread), you should probably say nothing. To anyone. Ever.
Yes, I believe it is. I don’t know where it is written, but I did learn it in school many centuries ago when I was a youngster. So I don’t know if it is written in the Torah, mishneh, etc. Or it was in a sefer written by a RAV. When a family is in such a situation they should ask their own Rav. There are so many situations later in life, such as infertility where questions come up such as “did you hurt anyone in shiduchim that you need to ask mechilah from”. When it comes to shidduchim, marriage, sholom bayis issues, etc., don’t play fast and furious (or foolish). Ask a dependable Rav and do it right. There is no reason why a younger sibling should not ask permission from an older one. If the older sibling is not loving, caring and generous enough to allow the younger sibling to get on with their life and not wait for them, then a Rav should be consulted.
Never say the following:
“Don’t worry, dear. Yout turn will come, too.”
“Someone even BETTER is in store for you!”
“Maybe you should try a dating service.”
“This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)
I can beat that. I know someone who was told how terrible her situation was (a view which the person did not share). I think its near the top of all-time stupidest comments.
About the topic: I think as with most things, there can’t be a blanket statement. A lot depends on the ages/gender and relationship between the siblings. JFTR, this is just an observation on my part, but generally when siblings date at the same time, I find that they get married in order anyway. Just an observation.
blinky – about 22 but she had been dating for a couple of years. Why?
Well my younger sister got engaged before me.she was 18 and I was 20, I made her shidduch with her husband and although people would say weird comments I didn’t regret it and I was very happy for her. I would never be able to have married a guy like her husband and when I married my hisband I understood the final plan. He’s only 6 months older than me and he’s a BT so I couldn’t have gone out with him before.
When I enterred shidduchim, I had an older sister who was still single. At the time, she was adamant that I had to wait for her. A prominent Rav told my parents that if a really good name came up for me he would speak to her and help her change her mind. Before that ever became an issue, my sister told my mother that she is ok with me going ahead of her. Both of us are still single, so nothing came of it, but I still think of that as an enormously mature and impressive gesture on her part.
That being said, I am pretty sure that it isn’t really up to us in the end. Hashem will decide when the right time for me and for my sister is, and we can only daven.
I’m extremely close with my older sister. I did not want to go ahead of her, but was told that I should start dating. (Many of my friends were married with 2 kids already when I started.) Within the year, my sister B”H met her husband. Two years “into the Parshah,” my younger brother came home from E”Y and was chalishing to begin dating. As painful as it was, I kept saying that I have no right to hold him back from performing the mitzvah.
My advice to parents with multiple children dating at the same time is to consider the feelings of all those involved. It is very painful, when after accepting the fact that a younger sibling may get married first, and everything is a “big secret” and “hushed” so that the older sibling shouldn’t “feel hurt.” The biggest pain is often the pain of not being informed and finding out “the scoop” from outside sources.
My younger sister got married when I was 21 and she was 19. I never for a second thought that it was my right to tell her not to start dating. Who am I from preventing her from getting married? Why should I have that power? It is Hashem alone who decides who will get married and when. I did not feel jealous or bad that my sister got married first; what is meant for her in life has no connection to what Hashem has in store for me.
I don’t understand the concept of one sibling ‘not allowing’ another to start dating. To me, that reeks of immaturity and selfishness.
I can’t say with certainty, but I believe there are Torah sources for younger siblings to wait (within reason) for an older sibling.
Is there really? I’d love to see it. I’ve seen many people in this thread say there’s a source, but I haven’t anyone actually quote it. Without it, I don’t see how anyone has the right to control someone else’s life in such a major way.
Ben Torah, the only Torah “source” that I can recall is the story of Rachel and Leah where the “tzaddik hador” Lavan, justified his tricking Yaakov into marrying Leah by saying it is not done in their circles that the younger sister marry before the elder. If you want to use Lavan as a source…
That being said – the only idea I can see is that the younger sibling should ask the elder one for her bracha, out of respect for that sibling (based on the halachos of kibud Av, which extends to one’s older siblings).
I believe if the younger sibling is like 20, 21 then she shouldn’t be running to tell every shadchan that she’s officially in the parsha, but if something comes up and it sounds good then she should go ahead with it. But that doesn’t mean only if it’s the Ravs son etc to actually consider it. I’m talking about any shidduch that comes up that she would date if she didn’t have an older sister.
Given the difficulty of making shidduchim today, I believe it would be irresponsible to pass up a shidduch because an older sibling has not met his/her zivug. But it needs to be handled with sensitivity.
I couldn’t agree with you more oomis.
zugt Lovon, “Lo na’aseh kein b’mikoimeinu”.
So it depends on whether your minhagim shtam from Lovon.
I know someone who waited 7 years for her sister a year older than her to get married. Her sister is divorced and she is not yet married.
Once it gets to a certain point, it may be that younger sibling may not wait, as they must do their responsibility..
yes and the younger sister is a great girl… she’s just a little old now
There are different shittas. Some poskim are very strict and hold one must wait for all their older siblings to get married prior to getting married themselves. Another shitta is to only wait for siblings of the same gender.
In extenuating circumstances the above minhagim can be eased. Others are meikel in general.
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