What percentage of off the derech kids/teens/adults return to Yiddishkeit?

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  • #1454528

    The little I know
    Participant

    GAON:

    The publication from the Satmar Dayanim was not the psak of a Beis Din in a specific instance. It was for general consumption, and seeks to establish a halachic precedent to apply when someone from המון עם deals with an OTD kid. That is a huge problem. Who assessed this kid? Is every OTD kid a kofer? I suggest that there is a microscopic percentage that go these ways due to intellectual motives. Everyone else, the vast overwhelming majority, are doing so for emotional reasons. That is metzius. I happen to be more qualified than the dayanim to assess that. How is a regular baal haboss supposed to address his child that is OTD. With rejection, hate, etc.? I suggest that this is NOT a general psak that belongs in circulation. The examples I gave were not from drush, and were not exceptional cases.

    #1454498

    GAON
    Participant

    “they used such force in Europe when the local government didn’t intervene in Jewish communal affairs.’

    Totally off . The ones they used it against were frum Jews that were part of the community. Here its the OTHER way around, we are dealing with people who LEFT the fold and we are trying to do whatever possible for them to return. BD has no authority over them in any whatsoever matter. The issue in concern is only regarding the people who do abide and are part of the community if THEY can have any connections.

    The ones that left are basically not even interested in you and are part of (or on the way) the secular society.

    #1454254

    The little I know
    Participant

    Received in email from R’ Avi Fishoff: (copied and pasted)

    The famous Dayan HaRav Binyumin Gruber shlyt”a told these stories to me and gave me permission to say them over in his name:
    A Satmar chussid came to his Rebbeh the Divrei Yoel zy”a crying bitterly about his son who was extremely rebellious to the extent that he was off the derech, r”l.
    The father exclaimed that he was fed up with the boy and wanted to throw him out of the house!
    The Rebbeh zy”a told him very clearly: “DO NOT SEND HIM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE!”
    When the father expressed his frustration because the child was so rebellious and would not conform to the rules of the house and they simply could not deal with him the way that he was acting, the Rebbeh zy”a explained to him the secret of how to deal with wayward and rebellious children who do not respond to regular Chinuch:
    The Rebbeh zy”a advised the parents to do the exact OPPOSITE of what they were doing and instead of being ‘against’ him – ADERABA – prove your LOVE and ADMIRATION to him by spoiling him and showering him with EXTRA love!
    The Rebbeh gave an example of how to win this child back by BOOSTING HIM: “Whatever amount of money you usually give your kids – give this child DOUBLE!”
    (HaRav Yankele Pshevorsk zy”a gave similar advice to a very Chassidishe family whose son brought a shiksa to live with him in their home! His words were: “Give him MORE LOVE and MORE MONEY!” Indeed this seemingly “Twisted” advice ultimately proved to be successful and the son returned and built a beautiful chassidishe family to the extent that his daughter is currently a teacher in a Chassidishe moised!)
    When the father expressed to the Divrei Yoel that they were worried about the negative influence on the other siblings in the house, the Rebbeh zy”a replied: “Send all of the other children out of the house and give THIS CHILD ALL of your attention!”
    (The same exact advice was given by HaRav Elyashiv ztz”l and the Lubavitcher Rebbeh zy”a. We see that ALL Gedolim were not agreeable to EVER lose a child!)
    The lesson:
    People mistakenly believe that we must be MIRACHEIK (reject) the sinners, while our Gedolim understood that ADERABA (on the contrary) we must SPOIL them!
    People mistakenly believe that HaShem wants us to CUT OFF those who sin against him, while our Gedolim understood that ADERABA (on the contrary) we must pull them even closer to us!
    People mistakenly think – if we show him that we are ok with him, why would he ever change??? Yet we see that the big Gedolim all understood very clearly that what saves these children is baking in a strong feeling EXTREME UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT & ACCEPTANCE!
    People often ask me – where does it say that we should be mikarrev those who go off the derech? Before I list the myriad of sources from the Zohar to the Baal Shem Tov to the Chazon Ish, I ask them: where is your source saying that you should reject them?
    Why is the natural standard of reaction of so many frum people to FIGHT AND REJECT those who struggle?
    We have lost TOO MANY souls from the misguidance of REJECTION.
    Let us all learn from the Gedolim and make sure not to reject our struggling souls!
    We must replace REECHOK – with KIRRUV!
    We must replace REJECTION – with CONNECTION!
    We must replace CRITICISM – with COMPLIMENTS!
    We must replace JUDGEMENT – with UNDERSTANDING!
    We must replace cold negative looks – with warm positive smiles!
    And finally:
    It is time for us to replace our own IGNORANCE – with HaShem’s TOLERANCE!
    I have seen the miracles that HaShem bestows on those who follow in His ways as taught to us by all of the real gedolim of the past generations.

    #1454819

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    In response to the OP:
    Percentages prove nothing. It is a case by case situation, and each case needs to be evaluated separately.

    Before determining whether or not a child should be allowed to pursue various unpleasant behaviors or activities in the home, the parents should try to understand what the child is going through, where this is coming from, and what the future ramifications are. Sometimes, it is better to seek guidance from a counselor or Rav who knows the family well, who can provide their unbiased opinion on the healthiness of the parents’ relationship with their child, and together, they can determine how to proceed. This should never be decided based on findings related to other cases, because every child is different and has different experiences, reactions, associations and feelings.

    To kick a child out, or keep a child in, simply because of a percentage, or because of a statement from a Rav regarding some other, unrelated case, is irresponsible and potentially deadly.

    #1454684

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In Europe if someone became Mechlall Shabbos and converted to Christianity there was nothing the Beis Din could do, they could only punish someone whom the authorities considered a jew, if the authorities considered the person a christan there was nothing they could do

    #1454704

    Joseph
    Participant

    “they used such force in Europe when the local government didn’t intervene in Jewish communal affairs.’

    Totally off . The ones they used it against were frum Jews that were part of the community. Here its the OTHER way around, we are dealing with people who LEFT the fold and we are trying to do whatever possible for them to return. BD has no authority over them in any whatsoever matter. The issue in concern is only regarding the people who do abide and are part of the community if THEY can have any connections.

    The ones that left are basically not even interested in you and are part of (or on the way) the secular society.

    Completely and utterly wrong. Beis Din has full and complete authority over every Jew. Even the ones that declare themselves no longer frum.

    #1454923

    GAON
    Participant

    “Beis Din has full and complete authority over every Jew. Even the ones that declare themselves no longer frum.”

    We are talking technically. And not in the Zman HaBayis.

    #1454940

    Joseph
    Participant

    “We are talking technically. And not in the Zman HaBayis.”

    During the time of the Sanhedrin the Beis Din could enforce their authority. But even in Europe for many centuries the local governments gave the Jewish community autonomy to enforce halacha. Declaring oneself non-frum/secular did not prevent Beis Din from asserting jurisdiction over him. Even in Europe and in the Arab countries. We would do so today in America as well if the goyim didn’t prevent us.

    #1454956

    GAON
    Participant

    “Declaring oneself non-frum/secular did not prevent Beis Din from asserting jurisdiction over him”

    Name one incident where a BD had jurisdiction over a Meshumad etc. I can name you many cases where it was the other way around.

    #1454968

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango,

    Thank you for responding again in such a nice way.

    Personally i can tell u that its the small and almost meaningless thing that tick a boy or girl off, such as making a big deal about hair length , black hat / no hat, dark clothing vs light clothing,s tandard size yamulka vs smaller. wearing rabaynu tam tfillin vs not wearing them.

    If I were to take a guess, it was not the “almost meaningless thing”, but rather the “making a big deal about” that provoked the “tick off.”

    When i say mundane i mean in the over all picture its mundane on the large chance of losing your child totally.

    I don’t think something mundane causes a child to be lost. Something bigger must be going on.

    These are for the most part where children start to get frustrated from thier parents in yiddishkiet.

    Or frustration with parents gets projected onto Yiddishkeit.

    Also many if not most people who are frum by rote confuse halacha with chumra, mesora/ minhogim / vs home made yiddishkiet. First stick to the hardcore halachos and then slow wean onto chumris.
    Concentrating on chumros with out doing the halachos properly is a recipe for boys and girls going otd. Same applies to grown adults.

    So it would seem to me that chumras per se are not the problem, but rather a lack of knowledge or poor chinuch. So rather than throwing out all boundaries, which seems to me like cutting off a leg to heal an arm, we should properly educate ourselves and become better parents and Jews.

    #1454971

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    HaRav Yankele Pshevorsk zy”a gave similar advice to a very Chassidishe family whose son brought a shiksa to live with him in their home! His words were: “Give him MORE LOVE and MORE MONEY!”

    This is worded very strangely. Did the son bring this woman to live in “their” (i.e., the parents’) home? If so, did Rav Pshevorsk recommend allowing the woman to remain living in the home? Or, more likely, was the son living on his own and intermarried? The response to the latter would be VERY different from the response to the former.

    We must replace REECHOK – with KIRRUV!
    We must replace REJECTION – with CONNECTION!
    We must replace CRITICISM – with COMPLIMENTS!
    We must replace JUDGEMENT – with UNDERSTANDING!
    We must replace cold negative looks – with warm positive smiles!

    And all of this can (and must) be done while maintaining proper expectations and boundaries.

    #1454963

    Joseph
    Participant

    If someone shmadded to Christianity then the European governments put him under the Church authority and wouldn’t allow the Jewish authorities jurisdiction over him. But if he simply became “frei” or secular, as you put it, then the Beis Din still retained full jurisdiction over him and could apply their full set of punishments over him.

    But this is aside from the point. In halachic reality Beis Din retains authority bzman hazeh even over a meshumad. Unfortunately in golus the goyim didn’t allow us to assert it over a meshumad. But until the enlightenment period they didn’t prevent us from asserting it over almost any other Jew. And we exercised that authority. And would today, too, if the goyim didn’t interfere with our ability.

    #1455021

    Phil
    Participant

    “Halacha empowers us (meaning Beis Din bzman hazeh) to enforce bein adam lmakom Halachas, even via corporal punishment if necessary.”

    Joseph,

    There you go again, making up your own halachos. You are also completely fixated with corporal punishment and physical violence. I’m sure everyone would be interested in knowing who your Rabbeim were.

    #1455029

    mdd1
    Participant

    Joseph, +1.

    #1455049

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The most famous Frei Jew of Pre-modern times was Spinoza and all the jewish community could do was exile him

    #1455382

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,
    While you have a point, however Baruch Espinoza was put in Cherem due to his beliefs and his philosophical views on Hashem, which was later proved as certain heresy. I don’t think it was anything with being Frei issue, later on he became totally off..

    #1455404

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Whatever reason Spinoza was put in cherem for (Its actually not exactly known) . he was put in Cherem for some crime against Judaism either heresy (Most likely) or whatever, All they could do was exile him and couldnt do anymore

    #1455416

    Joseph
    Participant

    We need the guts today to do to the Spinoza’s of our generation what the kehilla did to Baruch Spinoza in his time.

    #1455410

    The little I know
    Participant

    I will defer to others here to debate whose authority matters. My issue is different, and all my comments on this thread point to the single most crucial variable here. I stated that this is not under jurisdiction as a matter of kefira and how to handle that. I stated, again I repeat, based on much interaction with gedolim of today and yesterday, many of their quotes (some were presented her), and considerable experience and study, this is an emotional issue. If that is ignored, it is misinterpreted as kefira. But that is rarely true, if ever. I therefore reject the publication of the Satmar Dayanim as irrelevant to the subject, while it might well be academic genius. The throwing away of anyone is unacceptable to me, and I believe, באמונה שלימה that HKB”H is desirous of teshuvah by anyone at any time. For those who want to portray me as being מבזה תלמידי חכמים, go ahead. I can continue to have utmost respect for them. Here, they are flatly wrong, and their drawback is not knowing the metziyus. Again, I am more qualified in that arena, and I disagree.

    #1455721

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    I get that you are trying to convince everyone that today’s “OTD” children are not in the category of baal aveira/sinner/kofer/heretic/whatever who would need to be rejected halachically. I believe, however, that there is a big disparity between the philosophy you advocate here “in the name” of the gedolim and what the gedolim would actually hold. You argue that boundaries should be set in theory, unless they – heaven forbid – make the child feel rejected, because the child’s feelings trump parental boundaries. You then bring numerous anecdotes of gedolim advising parents to not kick their children out of the house. Nothing in these anecdotes show that the gedolim told the parents to remove all boundaries in their homes, to remove any rule that might offend the child’s delicate sensibilities. Taken the way you present it, a child can hold his parent hostage on any boundary. “You don’t love me because you won’t give me ice cream for supper!” If, therefore, boundaries and love cannot coexist, and love is paramount, then boundaries must go.

    I agree with you that a parent should always demonstrate to his child that he loves him, will always love him, desires to support him, and will not give up on him. Connection – not commands. This is not the same as having no boundaries. Parents who have no boundaries are not parents. They are avoiders and negligent.

    #1455955

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Avram

    Define Children. Its much harder to make rules on children over 18 as you really dont have any leverage on them, they can just leave. I am guessing many people feel its better for their OTD child to be home friday night watching TV or surfing the web than hanging out on the streets and doing who knows what.

    I cant speak for anyone here, but if someone threw out their OTD kid for not dressing properly, using nivel peh and being Mechalel Shabbos and eating treif and that kid went out and did Heroin and ODed and died , I dont know how many could forgive themselves

    #1455913

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some communties do exile others. A certain OTD author was excomunicated from the Skverer community. However there isnt one community anymore and over time Spinoza has actually become more powerful than those who excommunicated him, so it really doesnt work anyway

    #1455933

    GAON
    Participant

    Spinoza’s of our generation”

    Go ahead Joseph dream on! There are NO Spinoza’s here. All these so-called Kofrim are just non-thinking thickheaded skulls full of air.

    You remind me of what I heard years ago a from an old true Litvak a talmid of Rav Itzel of Ponevezh complain about today’s Yeshivah status. That forget about producing true Talmidie Chachamim – they are not even capable of producing a Maskil.

    Most of these kids are just simple not even part of any society. They have issues in all areas of life.

    Spinoza was a brilliant philosopher. He was a talmid of Menashe Ben Yisrael. (in fact, it was during his absence, that the Amsterdam rabbis excommunicated Spinoza – he was in England at the time), who had views of Kefirah. Kefirah that is still being used until this very day.

    #1455953

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    You wrote: ” Parents who have no boundaries are not parents. They are avoiders and negligent.”

    I completely agree with you. Parents are obligated to teach their children boundaries. Successful parents manage this well. Others do not.

    You have drawn a parallel between absence of boundaries and rejection. They are definitely not the same. The ultimate rejection, which is what the Satmar publication advocates is something I will never accept. Neither would the Divrei Yoel, and countless other rabbonim and gedolim. And, no, I do not have any “straw” gedolim. I presented enough references from seforim to review and see the statements in print. And there are other seforim I have not yet seen.

    The question we need to ask is what do we do with a child that failed to learn boundaries and expects to violate them in the home. This is certainly a problem. The dismissive “throw him out, and do not ever allow him to be recognized as having done teshuvah and returned” is not acceptable. If this individual had explored other ideologies and left Yiddishkeit for any of these, we are dealing with a kefira issue. I would never publish the psak from Satmar Dayanim to be lifted and implemented, as it is dinei nefashos, and each case needs to be investigated individually. I do not think it could never be accurate, but would need a separate diyun before implementing. The Rebbe of Kotzk stated clearly that “Not everything that is said should be written. Not everything that is written should be published.” That’s the story here.

    I completely believe that the overwhelming percentage of OTD kids leave the fold because they are escaping, not because of some intellectual attraction to something else. That does not qualify for the metziyus of kefira, and their psak is not relevant.

    #1456017

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Assuming your belief is that there is no hope for the child to return to the derech, utter rejection is almost certain to create an enemy of the frum community, while setting boundaries in a non-antagonizing way lets you maintain a normal relationship.

    #1456036

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd23:

    You speak truth. People confuse chinuch with setting boundaries. They do not have to be separate things. If setting boundaries teaches, then it is chinuch. If setting boundaries makes family ties conditional, if setting boundaries rejects, if setting boundaries is a message of an authoritarian relationship, it is not chinuch. It becomes part of the problem, not part of a solution.

    When someone enters a new job, they are provided with a list of company policies. Many of these are rules. But there is a paycheck, and there are benefits. If the relationships with bosses, coworkers, etc. are poor, the person is likely to seek employment elsewhere. At least the rules came with some positives. And sometimes the match won’t work.

    Boundaries are crucial. But we want to teach them, and the dynamics of the home environment flow in a positive way. If we impose rules that are confining, as a show of force, sacrificing the family relationship for decorum, basing the love on compliance, we are rejecting. That rejection shows the kid that they do not matter at all, and will be expelled for the parents’ convenience and comfort. Nobody considers that chinuch, and this is certainly never the ideal.

    Boundaries must be taught, not imposed. I think that should be simple enough. Sadly, we were not taught how to parent before we became parents.

    #1456221

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    RebYidd23,

    I second The little I know. You speak truth.

    #1456220

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    You have drawn a parallel between absence of boundaries and rejection.

    No I haven’t. I asserted that you drew a parallel between boundaries and rejection. And yes, they are definitely not the same.

    The ultimate rejection, which is what the Satmar publication advocates is something I will never accept. Neither would the Divrei Yoel, and countless other rabbonim and gedolim.

    I understand that it might be easier to swing your bat at the “Satmar publication” straw man than respond to my position, but it really does not further the conversation, because I am in no way advocating for the “Satmar publication” position as you present it (I have not seen anything about it myself).

    And, no, I do not have any “straw” gedolim. I presented enough references from seforim to review and see the statements in print. And there are other seforim I have not yet seen.

    I understand and have seen your references. What I am suggesting is that the sources you have brought state A,. And you are arguing that since A is true than B must follow. And I am disputing your B, not the point A.

    A = A parent should always love and embrace his child and not reject him completely.

    B = Boundaries are good in theory, but if a child has problems with boundaries, the boundaries should fall by the wayside, because it’s not loving or accepting to make a child with boundary issues face boundaries.

    #1456211

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Its much harder to make rules on children over 18 as you really dont have any leverage on them, they can just leave.

    Why would I want to have “leverage” over my 18 year old child? That doesn’t seem like a healthy way to relate at all. And why are we treating adult children like they are immature teenagers?

    I am guessing many people feel its better for their OTD child to be home friday night watching TV or surfing the web than hanging out on the streets and doing who knows what.

    This seems like a false dilemma, because there is a whole continent of scenarios between being at home on a Friday night and being “on the street”. Also, I would certainly not disallow a child from my home because he doesn’t keep Shabbos, G-d forbid. At the same time, as the manager of a shomer Shabbos home, I can expect that no phones should be seen out and about. And as far as television, there would need to be a television in the home for there to be television watching. I’m not planning to buy one, and I don’t feel guilty about that.

    I cant speak for anyone here, but if someone threw out their OTD kid for not dressing properly, using nivel peh and being Mechalel Shabbos and eating treif

    So here you are not even responding to me anymore, because I have never suggested throwing a child out of the house for any reason.

    and that kid went out and did Heroin and ODed and died , I dont know how many could forgive themselves

    I don’t know about you, but my home is NOT a halfway house, and I am in no way equipped to respond appropriately to a serious drug abuse problem. If I think I can counter substance abuse with a warm embrace and an “everything goes” policy under my roof, I would not only be an enabler, I would be putting my child and everyone else in the home in serious danger. What if that kid G-d forbid ODed in his room, and a younger sibling found him in the morning? Or the dealer comes by the house to collect on his debts?

    #1456268

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And as far as television, there would need to be a television in the home for there to be television watching. I’m not planning to buy one, and I don’t feel guilty about that.

    Who said you bought a TV, I just said they were watching TV (Or Netflix) an 18 year can have their own money and spend as they want. They could have a TV or netflix that you did not purchase

    A non shomer shabbat kid is going to do something Mechalal Shabbos either in front of you or behind your back and what if the kid says to you I am going to watch a movie on Netflix and if you dont agree , I am going “somewhere else”. No he wasnt Mechalel shabbos in your house, he was Mechalal shabbos elsewhere

    #1456293

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Assuming your belief is that there is no hope for the child to return to the derech, utter rejection is almost certain to create an enemy of the frum community, while setting boundaries in a non-antagonizing way lets you maintain a normal relationship.”

    If you know there’s no hope for the child to return to the derech of Torah, why would you maintain a normal relationship with him/her given that he/she is a willfull Torah violater every day without remorse, and having been brought up in a Torah home is no tinok shenishba?

    #1456307

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Who said you bought a TV, I just said they were watching TV (Or Netflix) an 18 year can have their own money and spend as they want. They could have a TV or netflix that you did not purchase

    That’s 100% true. As the manager of the house, however, I have a say about what items are allowed into the house, where they are allowed to be used, and I also manage the WiFi password and settings. If devices connected to the WiFi are causing upsetting disruptions to the Shabbos peace in the home, the WiFi may need to be unplugged from Friday afternoon until Saturday night. If there is no apparent disruption, I don’t see a need to add an additional task to the Friday checklist of stuff to do. At the end of the day, what boundaries I choose to set should be based on maximizing everyone’s health and safety, including the “OTD” child, and the choice would involve extensive thought and discussions with a rav very familiar with my family. And I’m certainly willing to talk everything through with a family counselor, to make sure that everyone feels heard and understood. I would hope that I would have sought outside resources long before the situation reaches such a point.

    I’m curious how far you think this right of a child to do whatever he wants in your house, nyah nyah nyah, goes. Would you allow a child to just go and buy a cat and bring it into your house no matter what you think? What if you or one of your other children was allergic to cats? Would you let him commit crimes from within your house? Also, would you think restrictions on Netflix or phone usage would be so unreasonable if, instead of Shabbos, we were talking about overnight usage before a school day? Should your 16 year old be allowed to tappity tap all night on a phone and sleep through class the next day?

    A non shomer shabbat kid is going to do something Mechalal Shabbos either in front of you or behind your back

    I am not a TSA agent and my home is not an airport security checkpoint. At the end of the day, however, I am responsible for everyone’s physical, emotional, and spiritual safety in the home.

    and what if the kid says to you I am going to watch a movie on Netflix and if you dont agree , I am going “somewhere else”. No he wasnt Mechalel shabbos in your house, he was Mechalal shabbos elsewhere

    Sounds like a child with serious perspective and maturity issues. If we’re talking about an adult child, I cannot stop him, and I’d remind him that we love him and are always here for him, and he’s always welcome. If it’s a minor child – the home is not a prison, but since we are responsible for his safety and well being, we expect him back at so-and-so a time. And if I have reason to be concerned about his safety and I cannot find him, I will call the police.

    #1456314

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    You wrote: “B = Boundaries are good in theory, but if a child has problems with boundaries, the boundaries should fall by the wayside, because it’s not loving or accepting to make a child with boundary issues face boundaries.”

    I happen to believe that boundaries are good in more than theory. Boundaries that exist only on the architect plans do not protect anyone. Boundaries must exist in reality.

    Now let’s explore the reality of this issue. I noted earlier than boundaries, to be effective, must be taught, not imposed. I want the guardrails on the highway to serve as a visual cue to maintain the proper direction of my car. To create a guardrail that one will continually ram, even if it effectively blocked the vehicle from exiting the highway, is not a boundary, but a barrier. That may be useful in the perimeter of a prison. It is dysfunctional in a home, even if it actually works.

    My kids need to be happy in my home, not looking for the loophole to break out. Imposed boundaries create the barrier that kids look to circumvent. They have learned nothing. And I have perpetuated their negative status.

    Boundaries need to be taught, where the kids learn what is right and wrong, what is good or not. I suggest that a great many OTD situations involve problems with this process, having been done incorrectly, or in a manner that was not effective. Now that the kid is acting out, now we are going to impose boundaries. This does not work. This imposition of boundaries is a parallel with rejection, because that’s the only message. Sure, the situation is frustrating. I freak when my toddler grandchildren discover a light switch they can reach. No one wants chilul Shabbos in their home. But the fight is futile, and carries major risk, in short term and long term.

    One additional thought. We are conditioned to being mechanech all our children the exact same way. Shlomo Hamelech told us חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. The instruction includes that this derech may not be that which I would choose, and also not the derech that works for another child. We may have done a great job at teaching boundaries to all our children. But if, for whatever reason, it did not work with this one child, I have an obligation to accomplish that teaching in a way that will be effective. That is the OTD kid. Not necessarily bad parents. Just the failure to match the right parenting skills needed for that kid.

    #1456323

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Avram,

    part of my response was not aimed at you, althought it might have seemed like it, you did not advocate throwing people out, but others did.

    Ultimatly as a parent you have to make decisions sometimes on what path is “least harm”. If you know your kids friends and generally think they are ok except not religious (Ie college kids at good university) then maybe it would be better to let them be Mechalal shabbos with them, But if you know the kids to be basically dregs of society, Smoking pot and otherwise engaging in “non-productive” or even criminal activities maybe its best to let them stay home.

    Being a teen is tough and figuring out your place in society is tough. I know I never want to be a teen again if I had the chance

    #1456327

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    Now let’s explore the reality of this issue.

    And thus you prepare your rhetorical escape hatch.

    I noted earlier than boundaries, to be effective, must be taught, not imposed. I want the guardrails on the highway to serve as a visual cue to maintain the proper direction of my car.

    Agreed.

    To create a guardrail that one will continually ram, even if it effectively blocked the vehicle from exiting the highway, is not a boundary, but a barrier.

    This is nonsensical. If my car is continually ramming a barrier, it’s not because the highway administration randomly put a guardrail up for my car to crash into. It’s because my car is veering off the road.

    My kids need to be happy in my home

    My kids need to be safe, nourished, nurtured, loved, and prepared for adulthood in my home. G-d willing most of the time they will also be happy, but there will be times that they are not. And in those situations it is my role as a parent to help them to respond positively to adversity and not always getting what they want. Not to do whatever I can to make them happy. That’s not a recipe for raising well adjusted and high functioning adults who are prepared for the real world.

    Boundaries need to be taught, where the kids learn what is right and wrong, what is good or not.

    I agree 100%.

    I suggest that a great many OTD situations involve problems with this process, having been done incorrectly, or in a manner that was not effective.

    I think there are cases where that is true. I think, unfortunately, that the majority of OTD issues arise within the influence of a toxic peer culture that directs kids to look to each other for guidance, not their parents. Children instinctively look for a single authority – see how upset they become if there is a disparity between what they are taught in school and what their parents say. If a child’s peers become his authority, then his resilience towards his parents shrinks considerably. Parents and children are not angels and will make mistakes, and in a normal world parent and child should be able to reconnect lovingly following a rupture. But when their world is filled with disrespectful teenage role models, connection becomes far more difficult.

    Now that the kid is acting out, now we are going to impose boundaries.

    Nope – just because a kid is acting out does not mean that all boundaries become magically transformed to newly imposed and punitive.

    This does not work. This imposition of boundaries is a parallel with rejection, because that’s the only message. Sure, the situation is frustrating. I freak when my toddler grandchildren discover a light switch they can reach. No one wants chilul Shabbos in their home. But the fight is futile, and carries major risk, in short term and long term.

    If rebellious teenagers decided to write a book on parenting teenagers, it’d probably read like this.

    We may have done a great job at teaching boundaries to all our children. But if, for whatever reason, it did not work with this one child, I have an obligation to accomplish that teaching in a way that will be effective. That is the OTD kid. Not necessarily bad parents. Just the failure to match the right parenting skills needed for that kid.

    And whoosh – out the escape hatch you go. Boundaries are good, but only if you “teach” them beforehand, and it’s almost impossible to teach them all beforehand. And now they’ll just be viewed as punitive. So…

    Getting kind of long… -33

    #1456367

    GAON
    Participant

    “Here, they are flatly wrong, and their drawback is not knowing the metziyus. ”

    Whilst I did not see the full responsum inside, I agree to a point. And as I have commented before, a blanket psak like this is above their head (K’vodum b’Mokomum..) and needs to be addressed by true Gadolie Hador via meeting with experts in the field and all involved. You can not just take a Rambam and say some pshat and pasken for a Rabim like that without truly investigating the facts and hearing all sides before deciding.

    E.g. As I have mentioned, there is the psak that you are permitted to be Mechalel Shabbos to save one from Shmad, even though we pasken אין אומרים לאדם חטא בשביל שיזכה חברך and we never say חטא בשביל שיזכה חברך when he/she is a status of פשיעה, but there are exceptions when it comes to total leaving Yehadus and there is hope of saving a soul (שו”ע סי’ ש”ו- י”ד – see משנ”ב סי’ ש”ו ס”ק נ”ז ).

    If kiruv has a chance of return, why shouldn’t it override the Issur Kal of (I am not even sure the above situation is even a Rabonon, especially the reasoning of the Rambam :ומחשבה של אפיקורוס לעבודת כוכבים) “associating with a Mumar” (le’Tayavin) ?!

    Note – In the Rambam’s times, Mumrim had no record of returning. If one left rarely did they return.

    #1456375

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    Long comment. Many responses. Will separate them so that the mods can post them, and dialogue can continue.

    You wrote: “This is nonsensical. If my car is continually ramming a barrier, it’s not because the highway administration randomly put a guardrail up for my car to crash into. It’s because my car is veering off the road.”

    Precisely my point. If boundaries are taught properly earlier, they have become ingrained. If there is ramming, there is a problem. The car that keeps veering into the guardrail needs to be reguided. The barrier might prevent from going off the cliff or into the ditch. But it does not constitute guidance or chinuch. And it does not create a safer highway.

    You wrote: “I think, unfortunately, that the majority of OTD issues arise within the influence of a toxic peer culture…”

    Sometimes happens, but this is a real minority. Most kids that go OTD are running nowhere, looking for somewhere they feel accepted. They are on the escape. Talk to anyone who works with these kids. Yes, the OTD culture accepts them. But why are they running away from a life we know to be so rich with spirituality, moral value, and closeness to HKB”H? The answer to this question is as individual as facial appearance. כשם שאין פרצופיהם שונות. These kids are not attracted to leave the fold. They are running from it, and the “bad friends” welcome them. Those bad friends were once in the same situation.

    #1456376

    Me12345
    Participant

    I’m sorry of this comes across as harsh and it only most cases not all. Most otd teens went off because of their parents. Because the parents didn’t do their job to correctly get to know their child until it’s too late!

    Naive parenting unfortunately is real these days and alot of us work full time and struggle to earn enough to support a family so we send the kids off to yeshiva and hope that the rebbe will do the rest. Chinuch is supposed to be a partnership between a yeshiva and parents, and if you’re not in touch with the school it’s potentially a disaster waiting to happen.

    The reason more kids aren’t otd is because the teens are intelligent enough and they are part of a good social environment to circumnavigate high school (and specifically 10th grade which isn the most challenging year) even without parents doing the job that they willingly took on when they were starting their family.

    #1456379

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    You wrote: “And whoosh – out the escape hatch you go. Boundaries are good, but only if you “teach” them beforehand, and it’s almost impossible to teach them all beforehand. And now they’ll just be viewed as punitive. So…”

    Boundaries can be taught to anyone. But the teaching methods must be a fit for the child. Shlomo Hamelech told us that. Parents were not given an instruction manual upon birth of the child, and must try to accommodate the best they can. It works most of the time, but sometimes do not. I have watched parents who recognized that a child responded to teaching in different ways, and have taken steps to accommodate. While there are more options today than there were a half century ago, we are more apt to push our kids into the molds of the yeshivos, with far less accommodation than ever. And we have the fruit of such labor. More OTD kids than any time in our recorded history.

    If our teaching of boundaries failed, instituting them after the kid is already into the phase of acting out will certainly fail. You may be fortunate that no acts of chilul Shabbos occur under your roof, but you may not know the whereabouts of your child. This is not a simple dilemma, and there is no “one size fits all” answer. Presenting boundaries to the OTD child might sound “right” but it is ineffective. Our real questions should be, “What will work?” “How much compromise is appropriate?” “Is this kid ready for kiruv and embrace?” “What are the child’s needs at this time?”

    #1456395

    Me12345
    Participant

    Tlik,

    “Sometimes happens, but this is a real minority. Most kids that go OTD are running nowhere, looking for somewhere they feel accepted. They are on the escape. Talk to anyone who works with these kids. Yes, the OTD culture accepts them. But why are they running away from a life we know to be so rich with spirituality, moral value, and closeness to HKB”H? The answer to this question is as individual as facial appearance. כשם שאין פרצופיהם שונות. These kids are not attracted to leave the fold. They are running from it, and the “bad friends” welcome them. Those bad friends were once in the same situation”

    Completely correct!! Prob about 95% go off as an escape. What makes it difficult is that most of these teens need serious physiology to come back and not dancing by the lake to drive them further away. If anyone read the Jewish novel “the will” the story is a classic example of why teens go off!!

    #1456406

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not an expert on OTD and frankly nobody knows the “real reason” why kids go OTD.

    But if I had to take a guess, something about yiddishkete they hate and it turns them complely off. A simple example is a kid has trouble learning Gemorah , maybe he is dyslexic and the rebbe instead of trying to help the kid. punishes him. Over time the kid begin to hate Learning and gemorah

    Maybe the kid is bullied in school , maybe even bullied by a Rebbe’s child and see’s that nothing is done and begins to hate school and hate the yiddishkeite that goes with that school

    #1456415

    The little I know
    Participant

    ME12345:

    Two corrections. “most of these teens need serious physiology” You meant psychology. Lok up definitions.

    You wrote: “Most otd teens went off because of their parents.” I would not generalize like that. Most OTD went off because of experiences with adults. I cannot cite any statistics, but it is close to a draw between parents and chinuch. There is plenty of inadequate, even bad, parenting. True. There is also a huge amount of abusiveness in chinuch. No, I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Let’s start with a personal question. How many of your rebbeim from your elementary and high school years do you still keep contact with? If any, why not the others? Keep your answer to yourself, but it will tell you something about that rebbe that remains with you. That is real chinuch.

    Next, there is hardly a day during which a yeshiva experience involved not a single instance of a member of the hanhala embarrassing a talmid. Yes, public shaming. Some cases might have been particularly severe, others not so dramatic. But the impact on the child can be lasting and deep. These occurrences are very far from rare, and do not even qualify as uncommon. This is tantamount to emotional murder. Once you have been shamed by a rebbe, you will never revere him again. Children also generalize to all adults. Maybe one rebbe was the culprit in this, but the child is apt to consider all members of the hanhala guilty. This is not a simple issue. The Rambam refers to the use of shame as a tool in teaching. But if you check out the context of that halacha, it is definitely not a first approach. It is as much a last resort as a potch. But it is popular.

    I have heard some hair raising things that yeshiva boys, elementary and high school, have been told. If your child spoke that way to your grandchild, you would be enraged.

    There is a lot that mechanchim need to learn about discipline. A good rebbe rarely needs it, if ever. The more use of discipline, the poorer quality a rebbe or teacher. Now, the talmid is the victim of this. And it is not just a rare exceptional case. I know way too many situations in which OTD kids pointed directly to a rebbe, with a long list of alarming events. Most of these events were not when the rebbe was dealing with an OTD kid, but long before the transformation.

    Again, no numbers, but close to a draw between parents and chinuch. Either way, the kid is escaping. These kids (as you stated, 95%) are not kofrim, and do not meet the qualifications for complete and final rejection, even if the Satmar pilpul is accurate.

    #1456469

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: “Let’s start with a personal question. How many of your rebbeim from your elementary and high school years do you still keep contact with? If any, why not the others? Keep your answer to yourself, but it will tell you something about that rebbe that remains with you. That is real chinuch.”

    Until what age do you expect Yidden who had a healthy relationship with all their rebbeim to keep in touch with them? Would such a 50 year old be calling all his rebbeim from Grades 1 through 12 twice a year? If not, how is your question relevant?

    As to the rest of your comment you clearly have a highly negative view of Yeshivos, mosdos, rebbeim and chinuch in general. It is highly unrealistic. You believe some rare occurrences are everyday instances in most of today’s Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs. They are not; they are rare. Today’s Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs and the mainstream chinuch system is beautiful, highly effective and works extremely well.

    Notwithstanding the exceptions.

    #1456492

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You dont always remember your best teacher, BUT you always remember the worst

    #1456591

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Me12345,

    “I’m sorry of this comes across as harsh and it only most cases not all. Most otd teens went off because of their parents. Because the parents didn’t do their job to correctly get to know their child until it’s too late!”

    Your words did not sound harsh at all – I think you expressed yourself clearly and politely. And I think you made some very good points. It’s crucial for parents to remain connected to their children, and the culture in which we find ourselves is not conducive to that, so parents have to consciously and actively connect. One point: OTD teens go off because they decide to go off. They can point to their parents as reasons to justify their decision, but at the end of the day it is a choice they did not have to make.

    #1456594

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    “Our real questions should be, What will work?”

    I agree, keeping in mind that parents are responsible for themselves and every child.

    “How much compromise is appropriate?”

    Also known as boundaries. A rose by any other name…

    #1456595

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Bad news for you. The shaming incidents are not rare or tiny exceptions. I am stating fact. Painful, but true.

    The reason things are not worse than they are is because of resilience. Many of our kids are B”H resilient, and tolerate these forms of abuse without traumatic effect. Include bullying, when the perpetrators are peers. When our kids make it, they are often angelic. Someone once quipped at an Agudah Convention, “Our kids come out okay from the current chinuch system not because of the system but despite it. That was stated from the microphone, and the speaker was not stoned.

    #1456609

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    Explain to me how your “twisted” philosophy doesn’t incentivize acting out and going off the derech.

    Brother 1: “Mom, can I have $20 so I can go to a ball game on Saturday?”
    Mom: “Here’s $400 – go buy yourself a TV so you can watch the game here at home and not go out.”
    Brother 2: “Mom, can I have $20 so I can grab breakfast after Shacharis?”
    Mom: “Sorry dear, I gave all my cash to your brother so he can buy a TV so he doesn’t drive on Shabbos. He’s acting out, so he’s more important than you right now”
    Brother 2: “Hmm…”

    #1456648

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: That’s completely inaccurate.

    #1456460

    Me12345
    Participant

    “Two corrections. “most of these teens need serious physiology” You meant psychology. Lok up definitions.” – It was autocorrect

    “Let’s start with a personal question. How many of your rebbeim from your elementary and high school years do you still keep contact with? If any, why not the others? Keep your answer to yourself, but it will tell you something about that rebbe that remains with you. That is real chinuch.” – in theory I agree with you however classes that have 20+ kids in them in elementary school aren’t really capable of keeping up as a rebbe to be michanech on a day to day basis. As a matter of fact even if they are physically possible to it might not be recommended to be shoel aitza from 15 rebbeim even if my pre 1A rebbe knew me very well, it’s just not practical.

    “Next, there is hardly a day during which a yeshiva experience involved not a single instance of a member of the hanhala embarrassing a talmid. Yes, public shaming. Some cases might have been particularly severe, others not so dramatic. But the impact on the child can be lasting and deep” – a kid that comes from a stable home and is instilled with good self confidence can take the casual rips and embarrassment that he’ll come across in day to day life. There are exceptions and every not sensitive kid has something that gets under his skin. Thinking back to my yeshiva days I don’t remember many examples of kids getting embarrassed and bent out of shape in yeshiva.

    “Again, no numbers, but close to a draw between parents and chinuch. Either way, the kid is escaping.” – my point wasn’t parents and not chinuch. In most cases of a teen going of because of a bad rebbe the parents also have a part whether it’s not giving enough support or if they’re not working with the rebbe the right way etc.

    PARENTS SHOULD NOT BE WAITING FOR ISSUES TO POP UP TO BEGIN SPEAKING TO THEIR CHILD’S REBBE!! all the professional mechanchim agree with this

    To sum up, of all my classmates that I had that went otd, b”h all are back and all are happily married to a frum girl. They never went back to becoming a mainstream yeshiva bachur and they’re all modern and not “black hatters”. All these guys besides one went otd because of parental issues besides one that had bad friends. That’s just a minority but having spoken to them I got the impression that alot of their friends went otd because of parental issues also!

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