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YWN Coffee Room » Eretz Yisroel

Why are some Jews against Israel?

(89 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by lovebeingjewish
  • Latest reply from HaKatan

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  1. Health
    Member

    shmendrick -"To Health - do you know that it is very likely that among the Erev Rav there were some who were lamdonim and potential gedolim? Korach himself was also a lamdan and a pikayach (wise man) too and he was considered a "godol" (leading many choshuv yidden)!"

    Stop making things up just to promote Zionism. Korach wasn't from the Erev Rav. Look up the Parsha in Chumash. And there is no Proof that the Erev Rav had any big Choshuve people. The Erev Rav was probably like the Freye Tzionim nowadays. Not wanting anything to do with Torah, but just joined up with the Jews to be on the winning side. How come so many kids of these Zionists are running away from Israel and moving to Chutz L'aretz, if Zionism is the Torah way? Just because some "Frum" Jews are Zionists -this doesn't make the Chazer (Zionism) Kosher!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Avi K
    Member

    Health, as I have mosted many times it is simply not true that most gedolim were against the establishment of the Medina. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Menahem Kasher and many others were in favor. Moreover, the chairman of the Aguda in EY, Rav Y. Y. Levin, signed the Declaration of Independence and was a Minister in the first government (this was before the fiction of a Deputy Minister with no Minister over him). Certainly almost every gadol today supports it or at least does not oppose it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Avi K

    Most certainly not. Most Torah-true gedolim are opposed to it. Some just do not voice their opinion, for they will not be heard anyway. Why waste Yiddishe kochos in vain.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    Zeeskite - 'no torah-true godol' = 'no true Scotsman'... I'm not saying I disagree with you, just your method of arguing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. shmoel
    Joseph

    No true godol allows pork at Chanukah parties.

    Woops... Can't make the above statement. "No true Scotsman."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. mogold
    Member

    Health

    Nobody ever condoned praying in aisles where its usually a inconvenience, I was commenting about praying in the galley when its not being used, and was stating my experience that the United staff is much more accomodating the El Al.

    The reason ? well El Al has secular Israeli's on their staff who tend to dislike chareidi Jews much more then a typical United employee, who on average has the American mentality of "live & let live"

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    Shmoel - don't try to be clever, it doesn't suit you. As you well know, there is a difference between a pasuk mefureshes and your opinion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. shmoel
    Joseph

    JMH: Except what ZeesKite said is a matter of fact; just like eating treif.

    No difference between ZK's so-called Scotsman and mine.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Health
    Member

    Avi K -"Health, as I have mosted many times it is simply not true that most gedolim were against the establishment of the Medina."

    And others have posted that you're wrong. We even listed all the Gedolim. Repeating something that was posted many times before doesn't make it true or more true each time around.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Health
    Member

    mogold -"Health -Nobody ever condoned praying in aisles where its usually a inconvenience, I was commenting about praying in the galley when its not being used,"

    You are Wrong. Tower/Metro let people Daven in the back in the aisle. It was tolerated, since if a person had to go to the bathroom they could squeeze by. Nowadays the airlines don't tolerate it because Frum Jews and their practices are second-class citizens. They make enough money off us to try to find someplace where Frum Jews can Daven.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. shmoel
    Joseph

    Delta allows a minyan shachris in the kitchen area on the international flight.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    It's not a fact. You have arbitrarily decided on who qualifies for gadlus based on your opinion. There were gedolim who held of creating a medina, and yes Rav Kook was one (regardless of whether or not you agree with some of his more controversial piskei halocho) - Rav Sonnenfeld, despite disagreeing with him on many things, was machshiv him as such, as was R' Aryeh Levine and R' Elyashiv. You, however, based on your opinion, have decided that he was not as he had the 'chutzpa' to disagree with your received wisdom. This is the no true Scotsman. Treifus is an absolute as it is a pasuk mefureshes, and therefore by definition someone who disagrees cannot qualify for gadlus. Like saying a bird cannot be a fish. But a Scotsman can wear underpants.
    Just so you know, I am not and do not intend to ever be any form of tziyoni. I am also not Satmar, and definitely not Neturei Karta. I may be Agguda, I'm not quite sure. I am trying to present a balanced view of the inyan, that's all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Avi K
    Member

    The Medina is an established fact and both Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet foresaw that it would be and called for massive religious aliya so that it would be a Tora state. Their call was for the most part not heeded so we have had to travel a longer path. This is continuing (and even worse, there are some who do make aliya but do not at least vote, thus in effect voting for continued secularism). and so we are still on the path. The worst are those who continue to back-bite. They are truly the Erev Rav as they try to prevent people from making aliya.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Health
    Member

    just my hapence -"I am trying to present a balanced view of the inyan, that's all."

    It's Not balanced because most Gedolim were against the Medina.
    Acc. to the Torah we always go after the Rov!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Health
    Member

    Avi K -"The worst are those who continue to back-bite. They are truly the Erev Rav as they try to prevent people from making aliya."

    This would include the Satmar Rebbe Zt'l. He held it is better to live in Chutz L'aretz than under the Zionists in Israel.
    Anybody who has the Chutzpa to call the Rebbe - Erev Rav is truly in the Geder of "Kol Hapoisel B'momo Poisel & Mum Sh'bechah Al Tomer L'chaveiro"!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Avi K
    Member

    Health,
    1. I am realy tired of this yes they did/no they didn't argument about the rov. I dispute you.
    2. The Satmar Rebbe in fact admitted that he was a daat yachid but denied that we go according to the rov because there was no meeting or quorum.
    3. In any case, the rov can be wrong.If they are the halacha is reversed and they and those who went according to their pesak bring חטאות Rambam Hilchot Shiggot ch. 12).Write down your debt in your notebook.
    4. The Medina has been established. Today nobody outside of the NK quacks is against it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    Health - I am not saying that I agree with Avi K, I am simply saying that those who claim 'no torah-true gedolim' were for the medina are as incorrect as those claiming that all those who oppose it are eirev rav. I'm not saying that we should support the medina or that we should oppose it. Rov has nothing to do with what I'm talking about as I am not talking about reaching any kind of hachro'oh. I am simply trying to balance the discussion by saying there were those for and those against. Anyone who claims other form of otherwise is distorting the truth. I hope that clarifies my position.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Avi K

    You seem to be possessed with your two "Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet", over and over again. "Erev Rav", too. etc. I think you're just doing it to call me out.

    OK So here I am. Together with THE VAST MAJORITY of K'lal Yisroel and it's leaders. Real ones. OK?

    I for one won't take that your "atchalta dgeula" or whatever is accomplished though a bunch of bareheaded, as an afterthought (first choice was somewhere else). OK? Sure, they were makpid to do it (the chalot) bein hashmashot because כותבין עליו אונו ואפילו בשבת. Sure, with the argeement of "all" of your Rabbis. Conscription of females in the army - at the behest of "All" the gedolim. Abortions, autopsies etc. Sure. All litveshe Gedolim and Chasidishe Rebbes.

    Please.

    Do a little honest homework. A bit of history will suffice. Honest history. Not the propaganda they inoculate. (Rav Weissmandel - Min Hametzar, Rav Miller to name a few, and I haven't yet mentioned the Satmar Rav)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Health
    Member

    Avi K -"Health,
    1. I am realy tired of this yes they did/no they didn't argument about the rov. I dispute you."

    And I'm tired of your Zionist propaganda!

    "2. The Satmar Rebbe in fact admitted that he was a daat yachid but denied that we go according to the rov because there was no meeting or quorum."

    He was only a "Daas Yochid" (which he really isn't) in ignoring the Medina right now, but not that the Medina is a good thing.

    "3. In any case, the rov can be wrong.If they are the halacha is reversed and they and those who went according to their pesak bring חטאות Rambam Hilchot Shiggot ch. 12).Write down your debt in your notebook."

    And how do you know they are Wrong? Do you have Nevuah? So this is exactly the Din of Rov - when Gedolim/Poskim are arguing and you don't know who to follow -you go after the Rov!

    "4. The Medina has been established. Today nobody outside of the NK quacks is against it."

    More Propaganda! Almost all the Gedolim are against it, but the question is what to do about it now. A lot of Gedolim hold we should have Political Parties to try and put some Yiddiskeit into the Medina! There are quite a few like Satmar and Brisk that say have nothing to do with them - Don't take their money and Don't vote for anyone!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Avi K
    Member

    Healht,
    1. We see that the Medina is established and growing. We have gone from a gray Socialist economy to a robust economic (as well as military) power that attracts international business and professional conferences. Various high-level professional conferences are being held here. The Geula is coming in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1).There are problems but instead of being part of them be a part of the solution.
    2. An offfical of another religion told Rav Yonatan Eybeschutz that he should go after the rov. He said that that is only when there is a doubt. In any case, I continue to dispute you. Produce the minutes of the session where they voted.
    3. Quite a few? A tiny minority of even the Chareidi community. Participating is acceptance.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Another sign of the Propoganda Mission: they keep saying the same things, over and over again.

    FYI, AviK, yes - your 'Medina' is established. Nothing to do with our Mashiach. He doesn't need your bareheaded interference. Doesn't need your kidnapping of so many Taimanim. Or the systematic attempt to wean the youth from HaShem's Torah way. He doesn't even need the 'one cow in Palestine..'. No, to him European Jewery, even those unable to work for the 'medina', is valuable. So maybe these Rabbis you keep trumpeting thought so, K'lal Yisroel, following its' leaders think otherwise. OK?

    And mind you, participating is NOT acceptance. And you know it. It's just that you've been indoctrinated, you've been preprogrammed and nothing of sense will stop you.

    Participating means one has to own up the the situation. There is a medina now. So we gotta play it's games. No, we wouldn't have attended the 'asifa' erev shabbos minutes to shkia. (or maybe it was afterwards)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. iced
    Joseph

    Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were also established and growing for a while. Was obviously Hashem's will. And Jews participated too. Didn't mean acceptance.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Health
    Member

    ZK & Iced - Thanks for responding for me. I hate repeating the same thing over & over & over & over, etc.
    So why do I? Not to convince Avi K and his like-minded guys, but that they shouldn't influence others with their Zionist Propaganda!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. nem621
    Member

    i view the state as a non jewish state such as the united states but this state is located in E"Y and it's the first time in centuries that we have real (don't tell me true Scotsman we all know that economic sanctions by the ottomans or killings by the crusaders don't count as freedom) freedom of worship which is why i think we have to defend this state. don't tell me how it is wrong to live in Israel because its too secular while you live in new york...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Yserbius123
    Member

    Just for the record: There is no large group of Chareidim in Israel who <i>do not</i> take money from the government in some form or other. Healthcare, housing, schools, kollel, these are all funded by the Medina in some way or another. Which is why I find the position of those who claim not to take money very confusing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Yes, it is a holy place. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. If someone is able to live a holy, fulfilling, happy life there, kol hakovod, ashrecha. But sometimes their government gets in the way (to put it mildly) of Shmiras Torah uMitzvhos. If someone is able overcome these issues, he should definitely should live there.

    One must be able to differentiate between Eretz Yisroel and 'Israel'.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. nem621
    Member

    what i mean is we have to help the state survive while obviously praying for geula and an actual frum state but this secular government is much better than many other options and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem and the army? well now they are instituting haredi brigades and if some one is capable of learning all day he is allowed to do so (and he should).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. iced
    Joseph

    Yserbius: Brisk, Satmar, Toldos Aharon and others do not accept any funding from the Israeli government even what they are legally entitled to.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Health
    Member

    nem621 -"what i mean is we have to help the state survive while obviously praying for geula and an actual frum state but this secular government is much better than many other options and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem and the army? well now they are instituting haredi brigades and if some one is capable of learning all day he is allowed to do so (and he should)."

    Your post sounds like you are trying to talk it into yourself.

    "secular government is much better than many other options"

    Who says? Maybe giving the Medina to Turkey would be better for Yiddishkeit.

    "and one can be haredi and attend yeshiva with no problem"

    Really -"no problem"? I think most Frum people consider a Draft -a problem.

    "well now they are instituting haredi brigades"

    And even here you can be Oiver things like Kol Isha.
    Wake up to reality. The Medina is Not conducive to being a Frum Yid.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    The crucial distinction between Eretz Yisrael and, lihavdil elef alfei havdalos, Zionism, should answer most of the "questions".

    But despite the technology, innovations and Yeshivos, the ideology of Zionism and its communist propaganda is so bankrupt that it's almost beyond comprehension how rational people still believe in it!

    Just take a look at the news coming out of Israel. It seems every day there is another story that indicates just how mistaken this Zionist egel was and is.

    Today, one can read on YWN that the IDF soldiers cannot defend themselves against these savages but have to run away from them because cameras are rolling and world opinion won't like the response.

    This is the Zionist answer to the "galut Jew": to outdo the galus Jew, not to make it better as they dream. The Zionists are prisoners in "their own land", where their army has to cut and run, the entire country is practically a walled entity with multi-million dollar missile shields and bomb shelters that still don't provide total protection -- and which should not be necessary to begin with -- and they have never known a day of peace and fought multiple bloody wars in its rather bloody few decades of existence, not to mention all the terror attacks, ch"V, Hashem Yishmor.

    What normal country builds bomb shelters as a standard feature in its apartment buildings? What country doesn't defend its own borders and can't even define them?

    How many thousands of Jews have died for this Egel, some of them quite brutally? How many families destroyed? Was it worth it? Do you believe there is any acceptable amount of blood?

    The Torah says VaChai BaHem, not to sacrifice lives, CH"V, for this egel or for almost anything else. What about the tens of thousands of traumatized Jews? What about the doros and olamos of Jews intentionally shmaded by those reshaim, some of whom are, B"H, returning to Yahadus but many of whom who have not?

    Yet, you intelligent and thinking people still believe in this idolatry and fraud even with 60+ years of history behind you! (And the gedolim all knew this even before 1948, contrary to Zionist propaganda; all agreed the State was and is a disaster, even after 1948. The Satmar Rav was different only in method of action, not in position.)

    As I've posted before, if anyone can't understand how people believed in the Baal and had the chutzpah to attend the show-down between Eliyahu HaNavi and, lihavdil, the Neviei HaBaal, as if there was some thought that the baal might win, then the mass indoctrination and Zionist brainwashing should make it quite clear how this could be. Stop and think how absurd this whole thing was. Eliyahu HaNavi, tells you Hashem is G-d and you actually show up to a mountain to wait and see if he's right? It's one thing to worship idols, as Chazal tell us the yetzer hara to do so was enormous. But to actually attend that showdown as if it wasn't perfectly clear what the truth was and is?

    Back to today, look at how many people believe in this nonsense of nationalism, which is a 19th century relic, and, worse, they have grafted that on to our holy Torah to surpass almost all else in importance. How is this possible?

    The only rational answer seems to be, IMHO, as multiple gedolim have written, this is a magnificently orchestrated maase satan, and he has, unfortunately, fooled a lot of people. What other rational explanation is there for why so many wise and otherwise great people can be so sadly mistaken when it comes to this issue.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Health
    Member

    HaKatan - Well Written!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    Health, thank you.
    Chanukah Sameach to all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. DaMoshe
    Member

    HaKatan: You list all the things you claim Israel did wrong. The fact that they haven't had peace isn't an issue. We're still in galus, and there won't be peace. More Jews died in WW2 than in Israel - would you say we shouldn't have been in Europe either?

    The fact is that Israel watches out for all Jews, all over the world. Just recently, when some Satmar drug smugglers were in prison in Japan, who stepped in to help them? Israel! Israel helped the people who hate them, the Satmar chassidim! Did any Satmar people say, "Hey, Israel might not be that bad!"? Of course not! But Israel didn't care. They saw Jews who needed help, and they did whatever they could.

    Who rescued the Satmar Rebbe from the Nazis? A Zionist! But of course, the chassidim decided to cover that up, and don't tell their kids that.

    You should learn a few things from Israel and the Zionists.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    DaMoshe, your response contains ideas that are incorrect. And you say I claim it is a list of things wrong with Zionism. So instead of answering those points to defend Zionism, since you seem to like Zionism, you bring in externalities that don't dispute that list.

    But since you asked, perhaps let's add to and/or clarify that list above:
    First, even in galus there are times of relative peace, even if that peace is far from the tranquility of the end-times. There is no requirement to have a disastrous State of Israel to make things inestimably worse, as I wrote above.

    Regardless, the point of mentioning they Israel has not had even one day of peace in 60+ years is that this is an indication of just how wrong their theology is. Their official raison d'etre (which is really a lie, anyways) is to provide a safe haven for Jews. That they have not known a day of peace in 60+ years means very clearly that they were very badly mistaken and that this is a very bald lie. Yet, as I wrote, people still believe this nonsense propaganda.

    As to your other assertions:
    Israel cannot claim it "watches out for all Jews". It can't even properly watch over the ones in its "borders". Besides, even before its formal existence, Zionists turned away Jews from the shores of Eretz Yisrael, fully aware that these Jews would then be returned to be murdered in Europe. Like the Nazis, the Zionists, back then, wanted only the young and strong to come to Palestine, not the "old and infirm" who were, in the Zionist's words "like dust...shall pass". Google it and see for yourself.

    As for the Japan saga, those innocent boys were Israeli citizens so Israel had an obligation to them. That doesn't make them savoir of Jews. Besides, it probably served Israel's interests here to intervene, as this was an easy way for Israel to propagate this myth you claim, just like a chazir claims to be a kosher animal. As well, see Shlomo HaMelech's remark "ViHaKesef Yaaneh es haKol", which is the likely the greatest reason here.

    Even if the Satmar Rebbe may have owed a personal debt of gratitude to Kasztner since he was freed on that train (which Eichmann allowed on condition that Kasztner deceive the rest of Hungarian Jewry), this does not change the halachic and realistic understanding that the State of Israel was and is a disaster. Halacha is non-negotiable, even if someone does you favors.

    It seems you've "learned a few things from Israel and the Zionists", like pulling the wool over your eyes and ignoring reality and history.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu"t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu't are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu"t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu't are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b'aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a "godol" does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.
    In turn, they also became communal leaders, rabbonim and gedolim, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel fromm the Erev R

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu"t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha. About him was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu't are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b'aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a "godol" does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.

    In turn, these talmidim also became communal leaders, rabbonim and even gedolim and rebbes, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel from the Erev Rav!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I think the greatest godol who supported Zionism and the medina was the Shu"t Mishnas Sochir, author of Eim Habonim Semaycha (which is the "Torah she'biksav" of Religious Zionism). About the Mishnas Sochir was said that he was clear in kol hatorah kulah, niglah and nistar, on the level of the GRA. His Shu't are amazing in bekiyus and charifus in all areas of torah!

    The descendants of the Erev Rav were against hakomas hamedina because they had no chelek b'aretz. To them, shivas Tzion, the return of yidden to Eretz Yisroel is WORSE than Uganda, where they WOULD get a chelek in.

    Some of the descendants went to Yeshiva and became lamdonim. Being a lamdon or a "godol" does not mean he cannot be from the Erev Rav! Nor is it derogatory to assert that a lamdon/godol can be from the Erev Rav. Acher was a lamdon and a godol, so were others who were off the derech! These lamdonim had talmidim and followers, some were swayed by the false shitos of their teachers.

    In turn, these talmidim also became communal leaders, rabbonim and even gedolim and rebbes, but they were spreading the learnings they were mekabel from the Erev Rav!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    shmendrick, you are mistaken.
    If you open the sefer to the introduction, you will see his son writes very clearly that his father's wish for a Jewish entity was not to be considered a validation of any ism, including Zionism.

    I dare not criticize his work, though others far greater than I already have. But the bottom line is that this sefer does not in any way "condone" the idolatry of Zionism.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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