Why are Yeshiva bein hazmanim so long?

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  • #1468791

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Is this just one of those leftovers from the 19th century when it took a week and a half just get a horse and wagon ride from Minsk to Pinsk to your little shtetl? If we have more advanced modes of transportation and nothing for the bachurim to do why doesn’t anyone change it?

    #1468833

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1468844

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Why are Yeshiva bein hazmanim so long?”
    theyre not. and just because you don’t want/need time with your kid to bond, be mashpia, check in on them, their progress, well being, state of mind and overall mental health, don’t impose that on me and my kid.

    #1468864

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    My wife and I lament the other way….only 2 weeks to see our son, DIL and einikel. The other two weeks they will be by my DIL’s parents.

    #1469654

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    So iacisrmma- if your son was working would expect him to take a vacation 3 months out of the year so that you could spend some time with him and your grandson/granddaughter? What about you syag-do you take off from work 3 months out of the year so that you can spend the time bonding with your son? Both of these arguments sound rather shallow and self centered. Its like saying “I don’t really care how much vacation time he has as long as he spends some of it with me”. It is also giving the message that he is not actually accomplishing anything in Yeshiva because he can take off 25% of the year and that is considered normal. If we apply a lower standard for kollel yungerlight than for those in the work force then it is saying that kollel is not as serious as working. Same with bachurim.

    #1469678

    akuperma
    Participant

    By the 19th century, they had railroads. It dates back earlier to when they often had to walk.

    Actually the vacations are relatively short. The Americans get off from Memorial Day to Labor Day, three complete months.

    #1469686

    Joseph
    Participant

    akuperma, why are you using American school children to compare to Yiddishe adults? We are adult Yidden and they are minor goyim. Two very major differences.

    Working stiffs don’t get three months of vacation a year, so why would adult students?

    #1469690

    akuperma
    Participant

    I’m comparing American college students to yeshiva students. As far as I can tell, Baal ha-basim never got off for “Bein ha-zmanim” unless they were employed by a yeshiva. Note that some Americans, particularly teachers, do routinely get three months of vacation every year.

    #1469731

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    if your son was working would expect him to take a vacation 3 months out of the year so that you could spend some time with him and your grandson/granddaughter

    you’re confusing me. Your OP was commenting on how the bein hazmanim they have is too long. Now you are asking if we expect someone to make their own. There is a considerable difference between supporting something that exists, and asking something incomparable to be instated.

    What about you syag-do you take off from work 3 months out of the year so that you can spend the time bonding with your son?

    um..yeah. I gave up working in hospitals for working in the schools so that I could be off whenever my kids were home to bond with them and be involved in their lives. In fact, after my first turned 1, my husband and I decided we would give up a second income altogether to be available to raise our own kids, to be home for them and to be available for school outings when parents were invited. So yeah. But totally thrown off about why that seems like a foreign concept to you.

    Both of these arguments sound rather shallow and self centered. Its like saying “I don’t really care how much vacation time he has as long as he spends some of it with me”

    This may be the most baffling comment of all. iacisrmma is self centered for wanting to spend time with his son, and I am self centered for wanting to bond with him and be involved in his life. {head scratch}

    The comparison to other professions is just a diversion. You opened a thread to discuss the purpose or lack thereof of a system already in place, complaining you may have to spend too much time with your kids perhaps or some other issue. But taking off of a job that doesn’t offer that time is apples and oranges. And as far as I’m concerned, the higher paid executives, doctors, professionals etc are the ones who work less 9-5 shifts, not more.

    #1469750

    NOYB
    Participant

    So long? guys are spending 14 hours a day learning, and you think a two week break every once in a while to let off a little steam is long?

    #1469939

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Syag- kol hakovod to you for making those changes to raise your children yourself. Perhaps I was not clear in which age bracket I was referring. First of all, I am refering to boys yeshiva vacations. I find it strange that the older the boys get the more off time they have. A boy in eighth grade may get off a few days before pesach and perhaps the day after. As they get older and even into Kollel years they get off two full weeks before and more than a week after. If the rationale for this extended amount of time is so parents can spend quality time with their parents, that would mean that both parents are taking off that month from work and using it spend time bonding with their son who is anywhere from 15-30 years old or older. I do not know many families where this is true. Rather this must be a different rationale as to why yeshivos give off for an entire month of nissan. The irony is especially apparent when during that month a kollel husband is home while his wife goes to work.
    In response to NOYB
    So long? guys are spending 14 hours a day learning, and you think a two week break every once in a while to let off a little steam is long?
    Halvai that guys would spend 14 hours a day learning. My guess is that less than 1% of the bachurim are doing that. That minority probably does not need a month to “let off steam”. (ask them). It also does not justify the other 99% explaining what they do with their time during vacation. I am not saying boys/men do not work hard in Yeshiva. What I am saying is show me another vocation in which they take a month to “let off steam”. You can not compare to American college kids. Most people would agree that the atmosphere on a college campus is a party with a few classes in between. The fact that they have such long vacations is not a justification to our boys who have a serious goal of reaching their maximum levels in avodas Hashem

    The fact that the American education system gives off 2.5 months in the summer is a relic of the 19th century when they off so that the kids could work on the farm. I don’t want to fix every system but let’s first start with our own

    #1470274

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTRebbe: You wrote “So iacisrmma- if your son was working would expect him to take a vacation 3 months out of the year so that you could spend some time with him and your grandson/granddaughter? ” What did I write that would give you this crazy idea? Did I say he should take time off from learning to come to the USA to visit us? He left with his wife for Eretz Yisroel on Chaf Gimmel Nissan 5777 and we knew that we wouldn’t be seeing them until after Rosh Chodesh Nissan 5778. We also knew that he would want to be back in EY for the beginning of the summer zman on Rosh Chodesh Iyar, thereby leaving just about 4 weeks to enjoy him and his family (with two of those weeks belonging to our mechutanim). So yes, we lament that we will only have 2 weeks to see him and his family and enjoy their company. BTW, his bein hazmanim is not time off, he normally has his chavrusahs here in the US set up before he leaves EY.

    #1470508

    Geordie613
    Participant

    iacisrmma,
    I’m with you all the way!
    I think we have to clarify who we’re talking about. Are we discussing American high schools, the various types of yeshivos ketanos, or the advanced yeshivos in EY like Mir, Brisk etc.?

    #1470452

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    iacisrmma- I am glad to hear that your son takes his learning seriously and maintains his regular learning schedule even when on official vacation. That still circles back to the original question-why make it vacation then? The question really comes down to this- do we take learning in Yeshiva as seriously as someone working at a job? If your son was working as an accountant in EY and he wanted to save up his earnings for a well-deserved vacation and go to the US for Yom Tov, would it be normal for him to say to his employer “I hope you don’t mind but I am taking off a month from work to see my family”. What do you think would be the reaction of his employer? Let’s say he also took off a solid three weeks for Yom tov just 6 months before that and three straight weeks in the summer. Don’t you think his boss would start to question his work ethic? If his boss would be cool with that kind of schedule, I would love to work for that company! If we do not approach a yeshiva zman with the same seriousness as a job then we need to question how much we really value the learning that goes on in Yeshiva. Everyone needs some level of vacation. However even the hardest working professionals generally do not take vacations longer than about a week and a half (two max).
    You can lament your situation all you want- what is the right thing to do?

    #1470669

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The problem IMO is not Bein Hazamin, but other “free time” .

    In the goyish velt Saturday and Sundays are days off and people can spend family time together and dont need as much “Bein Hazamin”, In some Modern frum communities Sunday is that day that can fill the void

    So a week vacation along with Weekends can fill the 4 week Bein Hazamin

    Shabbos doesnt count because many of the boys arent home for Shabbos and when you have the whole family couped up in the house, it doesnt always make good company and people get cabin fever

    #1470662

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many Gedolim were in favor of not giving bochorim off for Chol Hamoed and, instead, keeping the Yeshiva open. Even if that meant giving them off another time.

    #1470632

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTRebbe: I don’t like the fact that you keep comparing bein hazmanim to a vacation. But let me play your game. You work for a frum person. He shuts his business from Yom Kippur until Rosh Chodesh Marcheshvan. He shuts his business for the entire month of Nissan. He then shuts his business from Tisha B’av until Rosh Chodesh Elul. Is that considered a vacation for the workers? Would you be working from home those days? Yet, this what the yeshivos do and their “workers” still go to work on those days, whether it’s learning in a bein hazmanim kolel or with chavrusahs.

    A Rosh Yeshiva (in EY) has 300 bochurim/yungerleit in the yeshiva. Many have to travel back to their parents in the US, Canada, England, Australia…..what should he do? Have different dates for bein hazmanim depending on which country his talmidim are flying back to? Is Bein Hazmanim only for the bochrim or for the hanhallah of the yeshiva, too?

    Yes, I know that R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg TZATZAL also wanted to do away with bein hazmanim. Parents whose sons and son-in-laws are shteiging in EY have a right to see them at least once a year.

    #1470642

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    My original post was addressing the length of the bein hazmanim of post-high school yeshivos and kollelim and perhaps some more yeshivishe high schools. Yeshivishe elementary schools generally have more school days than a kollel. What is the logic that a Yeshiva high school schedule would tell their high school boys to come back 2-3 days after Yom tov is over but the same institution will tell their Bais Medrash boys to come back 7-8 day after Yom tov? The answer of “that’s what they did in Europe” doesn’t cut it. What is the rationale to give off an entire month for Nissan, 20 days of Tishrei and the entire month of Av? Keep in mind that many (most) do not stick with this schedule and in may Yeshivos, things start to fall apart after Purim. Isn’t it worth asking why?

    #1470680

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD, you don’t sound like you’re a big fan of Shabbos.

    #1470767

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    1. I do not know of a single business owner (other than Roshei Yeshiva) who shut down thier business for 3 months a year.
    2. If all yeshiva/kollel lite are continuing their regular sedarim during bein hazmanim then this whole discussion is moot. I believe that the reality is that a vast majority of those in Yeshiva or not like the son of iacisrmma and instead struggle trying to maintain their “regular work schedule” during bein hazmanim. Does anyone disagree with me?
    3. If the purpose of bein hazmanim is so that people in EY can fly overseas then Israelis learning in EY and Americans learning in America etc. should have a shorter BHZ.
    If the purpose of bein hazmanim is to give the hanhala a break, then they are certainly in the wrong business. Can you really say a Rebbe in Yeshiva physically and mentally needs so much more vacation than say a doctor?
    4. Who said anything about different dates for bein hazmanim? If the rationale of BHZ is for parents to see their kid once a year that does not explain 3-4 weeks in the summer and three weeks in Tishrei. It also does not explain a full month to see them.

    What is the rationale?

    #1470820

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I think you got your answer, you just dont like it. It isnt a vacation, and learning isnt a vocation. These guys are under a microscope 24/7 , unlike ANY profession in the world that i know of. . My sons (in the twenties) have chavrusas durong dinner and after maariv. Shabbos noght, morning and day. What do they do during beon hazmanim? Get shoes, new suit, dentist, doctor, medical procedures, call friends from other yeshivos that thry cant talk to all zman cuz none habe phones, visit nephews… you get the idea. Its harder for me to see why they SHOULDNT have this time, then to see why any 9-5er should have a long weekend.

    #1470830

    sabba8
    Participant

    In the early 1970s the Vaad Hayeshivos in Eretz Yisroel suggested shortening the bein hazmanim. Rav Chaim Shmeulevitz, z”tl said that between the sefarimof the Torah there are three blank lines and if they are not there, the Sefer Torah is pasul.

    #1470982

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I would argue that those learning in Yeshia/kollel are the exact opposite of being under the microscope. In most cases it is the least accountable profession there is (on an earthly level). The entire motivation needs to come from within and B’H as Syag is saying there are many who have this motivation. All the power to them. This does make them need these months more than anyone else. I believe people who are working also find time to go to the doctor, dentist, visit nephews and buy clothing. I also believe that a yeshivaman that needs to go to the doctor during the zman will take off seder and go.
    Perhaps we can also point out a difference since the early 1970s and today is the increase in the number of kollel yungerleit. Should they be given the same standard as a 20-year old bachur? The story from R. Chaim Shmuelivitz is intersting but cryptic. It does not state any really rationale to his shitah.
    So to sum it up-sounds like some gedolim say make it shorter, some say not and shev ve’al taseh wins out

    #1470990

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s being under the microscope have to do with how much time off is needed?

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