Minister of Religious Services David Azoulai earlier this week came under fire for stating he does not view Reform Jews as Jewish. The Shas party minister came under harsh criticism for his comments during a Galei Tzahal (Army Radio) interview, including a public reprimand from Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.
Former Rav/Posek of the Jerusalem Religious Council and veteran Chief Rabbi of the Gilo neighborhood of the Capital Rabbi Eliyahu Schlesinger took to the media, speaking with Kol Berama Radio to explain how we must view Reform Jews, speaking with host Yeshurun Turgeman.
The rabbi explains one can be Jewish in one of two ways, born to a Jewish mother or giyur. The former is a Jew no matter what he does. Rabbi Schlesinger feels that once a Jew aligns with the Reform Movement and turns his back on Yiddishkheit “There is a problem”. He adds that a non-Jew who undergoes Reform giyur, he remains a non-Jew and nothing can change this. The rabbis adds that Rav Moshe ZT”L paskened that anyone married by the Reform, even with kosher witnesses, does not require a get since the chupah was invalid because their lifestyle negates halacha.
“A child born to a Reform Jewish mother is a Jew” the rabbi explains, adding “and we can only hope the child and mother does teshuvah. We are not against Reform Jews but we are against their rabbis and their derech…They do not know how to open a siddur or the letters…We are not against the people who are Jews but the leaders” Rabbi Schlesinger explains.
The rabbi explains the government has a real problem because the Reform Movement is wealthy and contributes a great deal of money “But this does not legitimize anything and this does not give them a right to speak about issues that they do not understand. There are things we do not understand but things we do understand they should leave for us and they should remain silent”.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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16 Responses
“things we do understand they should leave for us and they should remain silent.” But this statement does not apply only to Reform Jews. It also applies to frum Jews who may think their gut reactions are frum but that are actually halachically wrong, and often stupid, as was the case with Mr. Azouiy’s inflammatory remark.
B’H, that Rav Moshe,ZT”L, made such a pasak about get.
That was courageous.
I was not aware of it, and was wondering if that was part of the reason for MK Azoula’s comments. I guess not, just a very careless manner of speaking.
I’m very glad that HaRav Schlesinger brought out this issue, and very glad that YWN posted it. Thank you.
What you failed to mention was his parable, “even if someone donates a lot of money to a politician, he won’t be given the right to pose an opinion about any security issue”!!!
The REFORMulation of Judaism
This is the Jewish year 5775. We received the Torah at Mount Sinai approximately 3300 years ago. The Torah is our “Bible”, the “Word of G-D”, and our “Law”. Traditional Judaism continues until
now but not without its detractors and reformers.
In the 1800’s a group of assimilated Jews in Germany decided to do to Judaism what Coca-Cola
did (to their formula) a few years ago, they REFORMulated Judaism. They threw out the old and brought in the new!
The changes were so drastic that many of the followers of the new religion didn’t recognize any of
the practices as the Judaism they knew. A group of reformers separated to become the “Conservative” members of reform “Judaism” and eventually broke away to form their own “Conservative” movement of Judaism which is closer to Traditional Judaism but falls short on observance as they are not quite sure if the Torah is given by G-D or written by man.
The REFORMulated Jews or “Reform” as they call themselves decided that one need not believe in G-D to be a Jew. They decided that the manner to become a rabbi was to take some history courses in a University and become involved in social issues. Traditionally to become a Rabbi a man must believe in G-d, know that the Torah is the word of G-d and abide by & perform the precepts in the Torah. He must have expert knowledge in a multitude of subjects relating to Jewish law, customs
& history and must be deemed to have a high moral character. A proficiency examination is then administered by a Torah observant Rabbi or a Torah observant Institution in order to obtain his S’micha (ordination).
They decided that you can be considered Jewish if your father is Jewish even if your mother is not. Traditionally, the method of determining if someone is Jewish is either he or she was born of a Jewish MOTHER or he or she had a “KOSHER” conversion according to the requirements of the universal Halachah (traditional Jewish law) administered by a Torah observant Rabbinical Court.
And the REFORMulation continues.
Torah Observant/Orthodox Jews don’t usually associate (in religious matters) with the breakaway groups or any other deviant forms of practices calling themselves “streams”, “branches” or “movements” of Judaism. Those groups then whine that we are separating ourselves from them (!)
or that we are somehow to blame for their problems.
There are some “Modern Orthodox” Rabbi’s who will associate with the other groups and some may even sit on their boards for matters relating to community or civic affairs but nobody recognizes or approves of their religious practices and views.
We have nothing in common with their so called Rabbis. They do not represent us. Their idea of Jewish practice is different than ours. Their laws and practices can arbitrarily change and are regularly changed at their annual convention. Our Traditional laws cannot and are not changed but are applicable to everyday life throughout the generations.
The reformulated Coke was a short-lived failure but Coke Classic is still around. “It’s the Real Thing!”
Reform also counts patriarchal descent as Jews, even if the child’s mother is a gentile. Together with their false converts, a large portion of Reform “Jews” are not Jews altogether as the descend from non-Jewish mothers/grandmothers.
A child born to a Reform Jewish mother is only a Jews if the mother is Jewish. Reform has been around for almost two centures, and has always had a very high intermarriage rate, and since no Reform conversions were ever valid, each generation has a high percentage of Reform Jews who aren’t Jewish according to halacha. For individuals whose families went “off the derekh” more than a few generations ago, it is quite unlikely they are Jewish especially if they have a Jewish family name (since the intermarrief partner would be the mother, rendering her descendants non-Jewish).
In addition, we don’t consider persons of Jewish descent to be Jewish if they give up on Judaism and join a religion – this is not halacha but is real world sociology. Thus we don’t like at “Hebrew Christians” as our “fellow Jews” regardless of their yichus. Reform is at least as far removed from Torah as the Hebrew Christians (denying the existence of Ha-Shem, rather than merely following a false prophet or a supplemental false diety).
Very soon (if it had not already happened) most reform jews will not be halachaclly jewish. There are many definitions of jewish and it is an exercise in futility to argue which is correct but when it comes to halachic judaism the reform are mostly not jewish (or soon will not be).
Most reform Jews do not / will not understand MK Azoulai’s answer to the question, “Are Reform Jews Jewish?”
The way they understand the word “reform” is synagogue affiliation. When asked, “What is a reform Jew?,” they will respond, “Someone who is a member of a Reform Temple, someone raised in a family with reform affiliation, or someone who prefers the reform approach to Judaism.”
Our Torah teaches that a person is Jewish exactly one of two ways, Jewish lineage or giyur. A Reform Jew who has Jewish lineage through his biological mother is as Jewish as anyone else. A Reform Jew who lacks this Jewish lineage and lacks kosher giyur is not Jewish. BUT WAIT A MINUTE, a person with orthodox Jewish synagogue affiliation who lacks necessary Jewish lineage and lacks kosher giyur is similarly NOT JEWISH.
Frame the answer the way I have framed it, and you can say that some orthodox Jews are not Jewish either. I believe my response is less offensive to these people and perhaps not offensive at all. We Torah Jews gain nothing by offending people who may be future baalei teshuva.
Jews in America who align with Reform or Conservative Movements DO NOT automatically become Reform or Conservative Jews.
WHY? There are many instances where traditional Jews (keep a Shabbos/Kashrus) live only walking distance to a Conservative synagogue and that is where their membership lays. This MK has no idea what is happening in the Jewish World in the American arena.
All religious MKs (Dati & Charedi) – unless they have strong Anglo connections are surprised/shocked when they spend time in frum kehillos in America.
HOW?? Wow, Frum people work in the city in non-religious companies, Frum people belong to Gyms, ride bikes, go on marathons, swim, ski and surf, Frum people attend colleges, trade & educational programs, Frum people participate and enjoy concerts & leisure activities, Frum people read Wall Street Journal, Times and non-torah magazines, fathers attend functions at Beis Yaakov or mothers at the boys’ yeshivos, Etc. and more etc.
We need to be careful about accepting potential Reform and Conservative “baal teshuvas” in first ensuring whether they are in fact Jewish or not. A family maternal background check if vital.
I’ve been told that of the founding families of Temple Emanual, the flagship temple of their faith there is not a single Jewish descendant. There are several reform clergy in the New York arealeading temples who are reform “gairim” and therefore not actually Jewish
“we don’t consider persons of Jewish descent to be Jewish if they give up on Judaism and join a religion ”
That isn’t accurate. They may lose their ability to be counted for a minyan or be trusted as an eid, but they can do tshuvah at any time and don’t need to convert back.
rav henkin argues on rmoshe zatzal and said tha t they do need a get/divorce because “ain odom oseh biluso belas znus”
Doc I hope you aren’t a really doctor because you are a moron.
Someone who does teshuva cares about Halacha and the Torah and would check their own yechichus before doing teshuva, since keeping Shabbos would make them Chaiv meisa.
Interesting how your psak goes further than rav Moshe, thus demonstrating your own lack of knowledge.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you descended from the eruv rav.
Akuperma you too. You never have anything intelligent to say and always sound ignorant when you post regardless of the topic.
Shlesingr is right ,AZulai wrong. I teach Reform Jews for decades. They are Jews but they are not Jewish.The are so simple about Torah like a descent 3rd grader has no clue of algebra or Bio, If you treat them with the heighest respect you win them all . Such nice people Tinok shnisbuh bain haamim. U catch more bees with honey then with vineger.But if u go with sinas yisroel then YOU have no ahavas yisroel. I tell them your 100% jews but your religion is totaly sheker, deception, created by self hating liberalised decievers who abandoned HKBH and His Torah —-Yosef chaim
I met their rabbis , how could u get angry at them like kindergarten children with Ph.D,s . Ask Them to say in Hebrew the 1st Paragraph of kreas shemah .w/o 10 mistakes.They know exactly when Maiamonades died ,but they have no clue where he lives today—– where ? in every bookshelf of a religious Jew. All u need to win them is 100% real Ahavas Yisroel–CHAZAK yosef chaim