“IIRC, according to some ??????? (specifically, I think, the ???”?), all fruit juices are ????? ???? ?????, but only ???? ???? ????? can themselves become ??? (although I might have this distinction exactly backwards).”
Turns out I had it backwards and inside out. Everyone agrees that only ???? ???? ????? are ????? ???? ????? (which is a ???? ??????). The ???”? holds that they are also the only ones which can themselves become ???, and the ???”? disagrees and holds that ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? (but ?? ????? ??????? ????? are ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????).
I guess that Rav says ???? ??? by heart.