- This topic has 43 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
My sons Rosh Hayeshiva in Lakewood informed me that the consensus of Rabbonim & Roshei Yeshiva is that the Yeshivos should be reopening albeit with adequate social distancing. We are simply waiting for Governor Murphy to allow this essential component of Jewish life to be restored to us. I don’t know the last time our Yeshivos were closed by government decree when halacha dictated they should be open.
Haimy: If he really feels that way he should reopen, just as we defied the governmental orders of Czarist Russia and Hellenist Greece.
They must feel that the halacha in a friendly government that is trying to help us (to some extent at least) is we should cooperate.
All of a sudden everyone is so pro big government! Figure out your options from a medical and legal prospective, and make it work. The Governor is letting you practice as you wish. We have to work out the practical details.
Has anyone heard of any local frum doctor that’s 100% sure that it’s safe to reopen?? These doctors are erliche yirei shomayim who love and respect limud hatorah. I don’t see what motivation they would have to express their uncertainty with all the rush to reopening except for deep concern for their fellow people. Why and on what basis are people ignoring their medical advice?
Did anyone consult with medical professionals to find out if it’s medically safe? If yes, who? If not, on what basis is this “consensus of rabbonim” basing this on?
You know what Pony, that’s a great idea!! In the last 9 weeks, I don’t know if anyone has spoken to a medial professional!! Maybe we should do that now!! I hereby appoint you the shliach of the tzibbur to care of that glaring omission!!
Medical professionals are only to be consulted. With that information it is the rabbonim shlita that make the final call about opening shuls and Yeshivos; not the doctors who make the call. The doctors give the info to the rabbonim who use that info to decide.
Haimy: Under what halachah should they be opened? Did Murphy rescind the dina dmalchusa dinah of closing? Was Dr. Shanik consulted?
Midwesterner, all sarcasm aside, are you suggesting that medical advice be ignored?
Joseph, rabonim are deciding what’s considered medically safe? Are they disregarding medical advice? If so, which rabonim are you referring to?
Pony-“rabonim are deciding what’s considered medically safe? Are they disregarding medical advice?”
Yes they are deciding what’s medically safe based on the medical input of the experts within the framework of halacha. It surprises me (saddens me) how many posters don’t seem to get that.Picture a severely handicapped individual in need of dental work. The dentist will tell his mom how urgent it is (most proffessionals see their area of expertise as predominant) and the mom will consult the neurologist to determine the risks of the anesthesia, and then with all this information in hand, shevwill determine whether or not to proceed. Does she think she knows more than the dentist? No. But the dentist doesn’t have the whole picture.
Medical professionals can explain the risks and requirements, but it takes someone who is an expert in halacha to determine how we act on it.
Rabbi tatz has an excellent book that addresses this process.Each community should have inter-collaboration. Rabbinical, medical, and lay-leaders. And, we conform to the state guidelines. It is not rocket science. [i. e. What motivation is there to deny this formula?]
Pony, rabbonim are making the final call when to reopen the shuls.
Can we have a list of Rannim that allowed shuls to be opened?
Dont people realize that any guidelines and rules will be broken ?
2q: There are hundreds of shuls that have opened in the last few days.
So please explain this. The doctor says there’s not enough medical evidence to consider it safe to reopen. What additional information does the Rav have to say that it should be opened anyway?
Personally, I have learned under a renowned Rosh Yeshiva who himself is proficient in medical knowledge, yet he always listened to his doctor. I truly feel like we’re in uncharted territory. I don’t remember ever seeing before so many people in our community advocating not listening in a situation that can be truly dangerous…
Pony- my guess is that you would need more information to find out the particulars. For example, you may be forbidden to do something that has a certain percent chance of causing death, but you may need a higher percent chance to override a halachik obligation. If a doctor says “it’s dangerous”, is he referring to a 20% chance, 5%, .02%? Any of these may be enough to require you to follow the precautions, but some may not be enough to restrict you from hearing laining.
It sounds simple and everyone is happy to jump in but there are more pieces to it.Your doctor or my doctor? If the doctor the Rov consults believes it is safe, why should he disregard his doctor because some other doctor is screaming otherwise?
Pony: I know of a quite a few doctors that told rabbanim to open their shuls (with proper precautions) as well as roshei yeshiva that were told by doctors that it is safe to reopen. The notion that there is still a danger by opening shuls and yeshivos makes less and less sense as the days go on and it becomes more and more evident that the virus is practically gone. Hint: How many people can you name that were hospitalized from our community before pesach (Too many) vs. after pesach (virtually zero). I feel that at this point anyone that is still not davening with a minyan etc. is just using the virus as an excuse and has their priorities all messed up (like we heard- they all allow cleaning help in/shop in pizza shops etc.)
Bocher- yes. Except your claim that the virus is gone, which is far from true, i liked your post. And i agree that those in the CR who keep freaking out about people davening with a minyan (don’t know any in real life) have been embarrassingly mum about about everything else. And no coincidence it’s the same posters who expreas cynicism about most thing the communitees/rabbeim/”chareudim” do.
If doctors are saying it’s safe, great. I personally spoke to one of the renowned and popular frum doctors in Lakewood (who’s a yirei shomayim who always davened in shul and has his priorities straight) and he has no idea what people are relying on. But if rabonim have received information that’s it’s medically safe to reopen, great.
Haimy, this last post is exactly what is perplexing to me in the hamon am reaction to rush back to the previous normal. You state that we may never know when we will be ready to open. Presumably that means that there is an element of unknown risk, ie a sofek sakana which is exactly the way my doctor feels. If that’s the case, all other points are moot. Who’s being matir a sofek pikuach nefesh? Be machmir when you have a sofek! Whatever the politicians say should have no bearing on us. We value life! We want everyone to live! Who’s taking achrayus in the world and the next for subjecting someone else to a sofek pikuach nefesh?!? Yes, it’s a terrible tragedy that the yeshivos and shuls were forced to close. We should all sit on the floor and cry to Hashem to accept our teshuva. The only thing that I can imagine a bigger tragedy is attending more levayas via zoom. I’ve had enough of that and I beg and plead with everyone out there to do their utmost that it doesn’t start again.
Listen to your rabonim and doctors (in my world they don’t disagree) and don’t make rash decisions on your own. If it’s safe after careful advice from rabonim and doctors then go ahead. But not before!!!
Haimy: The governor has not focused on yeshivos. All schools in New Jersey, public and private, are under the SAME rules. With few exceptions, ALLl parents want their kids back in school ASAP for the kids’ mental health and their own. Murphy has already said that schools WILL reopen in the Fall even without a vaccine. At this point, there is limited agreement what schools need to do to reopen safely and it will take some time (and $$) for the required changes in physical facilities and operating procedures.
Dear Haimy,
Stop fooling people. The Governor does not mind if yidden daven or learn. Nothing needs to reopen for us to keep the Torah. You posted 3 weeks ago, that school as is, maybe too stressful for your kids. Why do people not take the opportunity to apply themselves to what is right in front of them?Dear Bachur,
“(virtually zero)” is a very wrong outlook. Those davening at home are not the ones with cleaning help or in pizza shops. Everyone is doing differently because of a lack of leadership.First of all corona is NOT gone. Second of all it’s worth noting that in Chicago people started to be lax about social distancing and the infection rate which had decreased majorly from before pesach has since spiked back up! Im not saying things can’t be opened but it’s not so simple a rabbinic authority must decide based on daas torah and people must be careful. Also while the neither the government nor doctors decide halacha , the halacha is based on the medical facts and also in several ways is dependant on laws and even recommended guidelines. I have not heard of any RAV who paskened that it is mutar to open in a way that’s illegal!
Using- that is actually untrue about Chicago. The frum communit_ was sick til and thru pesach and now the chicago spike is the general public.
Nomesora-“Virtually Zero” is a very good way of measuring things. We drive on highways at high speeds etc. because the risk is negligible compared to the alternative. and although many of the things we do in life have some risk factor involved, we take those risks using the seichel hashem gave us. “LIFE IS A SERIES OF CHOICES”. We never have and never will get to a point when there will be absolute safety in reopening schools,yeshivos etc. but at this point i think it is fair to say that for the people in the age group that will be affected the risk is well worth it.
Dear Bocher,
It is wrong to say virtually zero about people who were in the hospital. [They are people, not zeros.] It is fine about people who are at risk of being hospitalized. [Now it is numbers, not people.] You may be correct about reopening, but do not forget the orphans, mourners, the ill, and the unemployed. There is a lot to clean up. Instead of blaming the President/Governor, or starting a minyan vs. cleaning help debate, we should think about those who really got hit.Doctors treat illnesses, they are not epidemiologists.
In the case of the COVID19, no one was an expert.
Bochur, what is the risk? What is the danger to yourself and others that you have decided is now ok? Before purim we were all sure that everything was being overblown. We were wrong then and doctors are publicly saying that they have no way of knowing that it’s now safer (besides the many anonymous ones that you know about). If rabonim along with the doctors say it’s ok, then we follow. If bochur says it’s ok, we should ignore him.
Pony- you are right, there was a very real danger that we overlooked. We didn’t understand the potential last purim and much damage was done. What is different now is that many people are among large groups who were already sick and recovered. They are not likely at risk of getting or spreading an infection. How long should that large group sit isolated and idle? Especially with the knowledge that most high risk individuals are not anywhere within reach. The doctors are asking them to remain in isolation, not because of them, but because of some other guy who may not be so careful. I do NOT say it is right or wrong, I am saying you can’t keep comparing it to before purim, and you can’t keep saying they don’t care.
Another point to Pony and others, why are we ignoring the stats of those who are attempting and committing suicide, being abused by an in home abuser, have sunk into more extreme drug use than ever due to the helplessness. What if those people are at a greater rusk than the sheltered at risk people? Would you care? Would you fight fir their lives? And better yet, why in the world is the media completely silent on the havoc being wrought through our country due to those events.
I don’t know who is “right”, but please, open yourself up to another side and stop deciding who the bad guys are.
Syag, everything I’ve been hearing says the medical community still does not know whether those testing positive for antibodies have any protection.
Syag, your points are well taken. I do understand that there are many sides to this issue and I don’t claim to know the answers. My one point is simple: if the LOCAL doctors for our community are saying that this isn’t safe, how can we move ahead? Why is the hamon am rushing ahead and ignoring medical advice? The doctors have also taken all your above points in mind and are not convinced that this is the safe route… What’s happening in the rest of the country is not a good case study for our community which is much more intertwined.
I also read a lot of opinions that having had the virus and even antibodies does not mean you won’t get re-infected. I then spoke to real life doctors different kinds including immunologist who have said that they have no reason to believe that somebody who tested positive for covid-19 and recovered does not have antibodies. 1 more prominent doctor even added that at the time of our conversation there were absolutely no cases of anyone having gotten re-infected , and that the reason they thought people were getting re-infected was because of false negatives they got that made them think they had recovered from the first round which was really just the beginning half of their one bout with the virus.
Pony: Who are “THE” local doctors? Every local doctor can have a different opinion. Especially on an issue such as this where the medical community itself doesn’t know too much.
The points you are debating are NOT agreed in one direction or the other by all local doctors.
Both opinions seem correct. People must move on, but be cautious at the same time. And think of others. Some need to distance more, and some need to distance less. (There may even be someone who needs cleaning help,pizza, and needs to stay out of shul.) It is much easier to social distance when we do it as a community. What happened? I have no idea. To paraphrase a philosopher ‘our community is dead and we killed it’. Let’s all do our part to make that line into an absolute lie.
Joseph, I’m not debating anything. I’m pleading with people to please listen to medical advice and not rush to reopen things based on… google searches? Rush Limbaugh? Nobody’s dying? I don’t know what the mindset is. I haven’t heard a single local Lakewood doctor publicly say that it’s safe to reopen yeshivos. On the contrary, there have been many public letters urging caution.
Pony, and which Lakewood Yeshivos do you know that have already opened — if any? If not, what are you hocking in chinik about?
Joseph, I was responding to the original poster who stated that the consensus of Rabbonim & Roshei Yeshiva is that the Yeshivos should be reopening.
Dear Joseph,
I know of four. And I am not in Lakewood. (Big deal, there are dozens that are closed.) All kinds of rumors about minyan factories being open there as well. Very unclear if they have strict guidelines or not. Do not react to rumors.This whole thread is not based on truth. As a community we are very different. We could reopen in a lot of ways, without violating the state guidelines. Especially, in Lakewood where there is an excellent relationship with the township, the police, public works, etc.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.