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I’ve been reading this website for a few years now and I’ve always been curious about one thing. How many critics of the State of Israel (or the Zionist entity as some would call it) actually live in Eretz Yisrael. I personally made Aliyah in 1988 from the US and studied in both Zionist and non-Zionist (not anti) yeshivas. I’ll be the first to admit it is not perfect here, but I highly doubt that improvements can be made, by posting to this website. Especially from Jews living in Brooklyn, Lakewood, Stamford Hill, London, New Square, etc.
So please respond, NO, currently, I don’t live in E”Y or YES, I live in E”Y
Please answer honestlyThe anti-Zionist Chareidi Rabbis also opposed Jews moving to America.
If all Jews would have listened to them, then all Jews would be living
in Eastern European nations like: Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia,
Poland, Hungary, Romania and Serbia.chaim_baruch:
Jews the world over should be offended by and concerned over the Zionist rip-off and destruction of Judaism and the Zionist shmad of Jews, regardless of whether those Jews live in the Zionist paradise or elsewhere.chaim_baruch:
The improvement that can and should be made is that all Jews should recognize the truth that gedolim have been stating for over a century which is that Zionism is heresy and idolatry, including “Religious Zionism”.When the Zionist “State” was founded, the Brisker Rav (who lived there) because physically ill. The Chazon Ish tried to console him and make him feel better by invoking the Chazal of “gezeirah raah avida liHibatla”. The Brisker Rav responded that this is true only if people recognize that bad decree as bad. But if they think it is good, then that dictum from Chazal does not apply.
That is the main purpose in speaking truthfully about the shmad Zionist idol, not for “practical” reasons.
This is a very valid question.
Katan from far off chul condemned the innocent ahenu yoshvei erets yisrael to total victimhood by barbaric monsters, just to fit his narrowminded parroted ideology.
He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael.
His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
The world of mussar and agada , and the world of halacha lema’aseh .
—We pray and hope that the RBSH’O will be chonen him some dei’a.
I would assume most live in the Tri-State area.
Those who live in EY tend to have a more nuanced attitude (i.e., no one would say the State is perfect).
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of Hamas.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of Hezbollah.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of the Houthis.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of the Taliban.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of the Iranian Ayatollahs.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of genocidal Jew-haters.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is an ALLY of terrorist who kidnap and murder Jewish children.
Jews in London, New York and Los Angeles have all the same rights to voice their opinion about Eretz Yisroel, as Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa. And if someone doesn’t like that, that’s just too bad.
In fact, Torah observant Jews in Jews in London, New York and Los Angeles have *more* right to strongly express their opinions than non-observant Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa.
On that note I would like to wish Mazel Tov to the Ribbono Shel olam!
mazel tov! mazel Tov! mazel Tov!
After 2000 years your children have returned to daven at the Srid beis Mikdasheynu.
Soemthing that was but a dream not so long ago is a fact of life for Jews all over the world (and non-jews as well)
A person living in Yerushalayim and has to make the decision in the morning, Do I have enough time to daven Shachris at the Kotel ( = Kosel, for those of you who don’t know what the Kotel is) this morning? Tell that to our Bubbas and Zaydes a 100 years ago. They wouldn’t have believed it!
How can we take this for granted? How can we be nonchalant and be totally unaware of the enormity of today!
I want to bench the Ribbono Shel Olam on his Yom Tov. May You see all your children coming back to live near you bikorov and may they come bisimchah, Kommimiyus כספת וזהבם איתם) May they come because they want to be near their great Father (and not because they WOKE up.) May they fulfill all the Mitzvos Bsimchah! And may you shower upon them all your infinite love bimhairah biyomeinu!“shachris”
“Bubbas”
“Zaydes”but
“Kotel”.
To answer the question directly, I do live in EY. Proudly so.
And I have my criticisms of the State, but those specific criticisms are only shared privately with those living in Israel. Not with those living in Chu”l.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Nobody cares what the NK do or don’t do. Besides, when’s the last time you even heard from them?
The Torah’s opinion is that Zionism is diametrically opposed to the Torah and therefore Judaism. That’s about what we care.And every member of the Zionist club is an ALLY of the wicked Zionists who spread heresy and idolatry throughout the world and are ramping up their efforts to destroy the Torah and the its learners living in its pseudo-State.
Evalimoshavlo:
On that note, I would like to cry out to the Ribbono Shel Olam.
“Eichah neHepcha liZona kiryah neemanah?” (under the Zionists, of course).
After 2,000 years of galus, your children have been battered by these wicked Zionists for over a century, who have now intentionally destroyed/shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions, not to mention the physical destruction these wicked heretics caused during the Holocaust
This is something that was always unfathomable, that “Jews” would do this to Jews and for such a long time, too.
Tell that to our Bubbas and Zaydes a 100 years ago. They wouldn’t have believed it!
In fact, the Chazon Ish himself didn’t think the Zionist “State” would last more than 50 years at most, but the Brisker Rav replied that the Zionists will spiritually feed off of the support they provide to the Jews learning Torah there. The Zionists are doing their best to stop that, which means that sooner rather than later there will be no more Zionist idol in any form.
I want to beg the Ribbono Shel Olam on this Zionist invented “Yom Tov” that you bring the true geulah so that your children are no longer fooled by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.yankel berel:
You seem very confused.
Please don’t claim that I stated things that I never did and that, liHavdil, no gadol ever did.UJM,
The meraglim as were tzadikim and Rosh yeshivos who were anti Zionists. Hmmm, I wonder how that worked out for them. BH, we had a Ben Gurion, a Golda Meir and not a Rosh Yeshiva who restablished the state of Israel. The country would have been in a real tzorias if it was yeshivish.SQUARE_ROOT – With all due disrespect for the fake neo-NK, if you keep up your ‘Every member of the (bogus) NK is ___’ for another few lines, you will have more ‘every member’ than they have members… They are a few dozen (at most) deranged attention seekers. That’s all. They are protesting against a straw-man/boogeyman that no longer exists, and the more normal Yidden yell at them, the bigger an adrenaline high they get.
Chaim_Baruch – I reside in Israel for close to 30 years, although I would describe myself as ‘non-Zionist’ more than ‘anti-Zionist’. If Zionism in its original form still existed, then I would be anti-Zionist… I am opposed to Yidden not knowing about Yiddishkeit, something the dead Zionists are major shareholders in (but not exclusive shareholders.) The remedy for that is יפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה, not yelling and screaming.
ZSK – I would go further and say that those who are actually familiar with the matzav here understand that the entirety of Israeli society (Chareidi, DL, Mesorti, and Secular) is nuanced and multi-layered. The most radical opponents of classical Zionist ideology today are probably the Meretz/One-State-Solution/IDF=baby-killers types. I doubt that ‘ujm’ knows anything about them, and if he would see them, he would probably think they are big Zionists because they are big atheists… He probably doesn’t know the difference between Noam Chomsky and Bibi Netanyahu… Or between ‘Mamlachti’ DL and ‘Har HaMor’ or ‘Noar G’vaot’… Or even the nuances of local intra-Chareidi politics…
ujm – Jews in London, NY, etc. are entitled to whatever opinion they want on any subject. There is a separate question of how seriously to take your opinion… That depends (among other things) on how familiar you are with the subject matter, and how seriously you take your own opinions (by acting on them in a meaningful way.) On this topic, that is something greatly affected by whether or not you live here. If you think that today’s ‘Zionists’ are located in Tel Aviv and Haifa, that shows how much you know about the demographics and society of ארץ ישראל today… That will affect how seriously people take your opinions…
Evalemoshavlo – May they come because they want to be near their great Father
Agreed. That is the real reason, and the only reason. You don’t need to be Zionist to believe in that (or practice it למעשה).
Yankel Berel – He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael. His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
Not living here makes it way easier for him to confuse those two concepts, and to somehow see everyone here as either ‘Zionist’ or ‘anti-Zionist’.
Square_Root – The anti-Zionist Chareidi Rabbis also opposed Jews moving to America.
An old red herring. Pre WWI, when it was easier to immigrate to the USA, the matzav in most parts of Jewish Europe wasn’t as bad. Post WWI there were already quotas and restrictions. Moving to Eretz Yisroel under the Turks and then under the White Paper policy was not poshut even if you wanted to. My Elter Zaydie moved to America with the blessing of Reb Boruch Gorlitzer who was strongly opposed to.Zionism… (And who, together with his brothers, did much to help the Yishuv in Eretz Yisroel also… History is complicated…)
HaKatan- eh. The Jewish world would be a lot worse off if it weren’t for the State of Israel. More intermarriage, more assimilation, less money for Torah, less Jews being mekayem the mitzvah of Yishuv HaAretz, less protection for our mekomos hakedoshim, less Toras Eretz Yisoel. Of course there are problems, but so much good has come from the State and it’s always shocking to see how you and those like you refuse to acknowledge any of them, refuse to thank HaShem for it, and refuse to give hakara hatov to the Kli that is the State that HaShem uses to dispense all of this good to Klal Yisroel.
Yaakov Yosef – Exactly right. Both ujm and HaKatan have no clue.
Charedim call me a Zionist, the RZ public considers me very Charedi-leaning.
YYA > Pre WWI, when it was easier to immigrate to the USA, the matzav in most parts of Jewish Europe wasn’t as bad.
A good point. While WW1 was a calamity, it was an event that passed. Russian revolution in 1917-18 was the turning point in Eastern Europe – and another several years to understand that this is a long-term change and not another calamity.
Before WW1 there was still the same question we are discussing here – whether to embrace or oppose modernity. At that time, the score was very much negative – most of efforts to embrace were not successful. The choice was stark – stay poor and observant in Russian Poland or become affluent and assimilate in America. Of course, when Jews ended up in America, they started fixing the problem – whether R Soloveitchik way or R Kotler’s way, what all these efforts had in common – strengthening community in American environment. This seems to be repeating the pattern of Yaakov – reluctant to go to Mitzrayim until forced and then, al pi midrash, sending Yehudah to establish yeshiva. Hashem, of course, started preparing earlier – by sending Yosef there. Ideally, of course, rabonim would be sending students to America early on to establish institutions. Chofetz Chaim had some vision – he writes a book for such emigrants – Nidchei Yisroel.
Again, this shows that Jews are not perfect in responding to historical events and we all should try to contribute to search for solutions.
Yaakov Yosef A – thats exactly it! Anti- zionists no longer exist in EY because those people are no longer zionists. There has been a huge shift in ideology in the left. If there used to be “ideology” they are mamash רחמנא לצלן on their last leg, on their way out and they are screaming louder than ever before their demise (ideologic demise). Its a huge rachmanus on them.
If you don’t live in EY, you have no idea whats going on. Like YYA mentioned the many layers of society and there are real true tzadikim in every group.
You are also missing out seeing EY develop in leaps and bounds! Its unbelievable! We are under existential threat from all sides and within EY neighborhoods are blooming, developing and blossoming!!Rav Chaim Kanievsky TZ”L was telling people for years to come live in EY.
American jews can do a lot to bridge the gaps in Israeli society. They can be very successful in kiruv because the standard Isreali sees the Americans as different and are more willing to hear from them.
As was written in different thread, the name Zionists was hijacked, true identity theft!
The word zionist needs to be redefined and brought back home into the fold.
A zionist is someone who loves Tzion, someone who cares about what happens in EY and tries to improve whatever needs to be improved. And why should people care? seriously, we were zoche to get an amazing golus in America. because אוהב ה, ציון מכל משכנות יעקב We love Tzion because Hashem chose Tzion – any other reason is just perks.Rachmanus on people who think America is the end all and be all. You are missing the largest scale unfolding drama on Earth….Hashem is returning to Tzion!! It cant be easy, nothing done for kedusha is easy. there are always מניעות. Fellow jews in the diaspora Open your Eyes!! be part of something much bigger!
I will repeat the truth as it is :
Katan from far off chul condemned the innocent ahenu yoshvei erets yisrael to total victimhood by barbaric monsters, just to fit his narrowminded parroted ideology.
He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael.
His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
The world of mussar and agada , and the world of halacha lema’aseh .
—We pray and hope that the RBSH’O will be chonen him some dei’a.
=========================
Katan has not mentioned – even once – what he thinks will happen to 8 million innocents in EY.
He simply does not seem to care.
Katan will support hatsole in the US . and any other lifesaving organization.
He cares about pikuach nefesh.
But that is minused by 8 million.
8 million innocents condemned by katan to …..
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.those who live under the zionists are less entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they are more noegea b’duvar
@somejewiknow – In that case, you have absolutely no right to state your opinion about Satmar, Vayoel Moshe, etc.
Evalimoshavlo said – “As was written in different thread, the name Zionists was hijacked, true identity theft!
The word zionist needs to be redefined and brought back home into the fold.
A zionist is someone who loves Tzion, someone who cares about what happens in EY and tries to improve whatever needs to be improved.”I understand what you are trying to say, but I don’t think you need to use the word ‘Zionist’ in order to say it. Love of Tziyon goes back way before ‘Zionism’, like back to Avraham Avinu… Herzl שר״י was not a lover of Tziyon. He famously was in favor of building a (Goyish) Jewish State in Uganda. Some good people explained to him that the Jewish people already have a homeland they yearn to return to, and that only by hijacking that yearning would his (אפיקורסות) idea gain any traction with traditional Jews, who were still the majority at that time. On the other hand, there were and are many opponents of ‘Zionism’ who were/are ardent lovers of Tziyon, care very much about what happens here, and do things to improve whatever needs to be improved. All of us can agree to disagree on WHAT exactly needs to be done, but we can also agree that the term ‘Zionism’ isn’t necessarily part of the equation.
I saw written years ago that Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik (of RIETS), in his Hesped for his uncle Reb Velvel Soloveitchik (of Brisk/Yerushalayim), pointed out that Reb Velvel’s strong and unwavering opposition to Zionism was never a סתירה to his great love of ארץ ישראל and it’s people… He also noted the irony that the ‘Zionist’ branch of the family resided in חוץ לארץ, and the ‘anti-Zionist’ branch all ended up living in Israel…
somejewiknow: Excellent point. Yasher Koach.
HaKatan said – “After 2,000 years of galus, your children have been battered by these wicked Zionists for over a century, who have now intentionally destroyed/shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions, not to mention the physical destruction these wicked heretics caused during the Holocaust”
To a large extent true. But those guys are long since dead. The present generation of ערב רב no longer believes in Zionism. In fact, they despise Religious Zionists, and some of them are more critical of the Army than any sane Chareidi. A good case could be made that Yair Golan and some of his buddies are genuine Erev Rav material, ditto the AG, most of the Bagatz, and many members of the Israeli ‘MSM’. None of those people are ‘Zionists’ in the classical sense, and some are openly anti-Zionist. I don’t even think YOU would be so crazy as to claim IDF soldiers kill babies for fun, but he did.
For those unfamiliar with the concept, the ספרים הקדושים, going back long before Zionism (and Reform/Haskalah/etc.) started, refer to the idea that the ערב רב from חומש still exist (at least on the conceptual/spiritual level, not necessarily biological descendants) as the רשעים מסיתים ומדיחים in each generation, and that they will be particularly active in the תקופה of אחרית הימים before Moshiach comes. The Vilna Gaon in ספר אבן שלמה describes five different categories of Erev Rav, and how to identify them… Some of the descriptions are eerily familiar. For example, one of the signs is people who are stingy to the point of cruelty towards worthy עניים, particularly תלמידי חכמים, but they gladly give generously to גויים and רשעים. (Any connection with the Supreme Court’s position WRT, let’s say, daycare for Chareidi toddlers on one hand, versus ‘humanitarian aid’ for Hamas on the other, is the responsibility of the reader…)
To help you understand, since you seem to be confused – the VAST MAJORITY of Israelis are מאמינים MUCH MORE than secular Jews in America (for example). More than 50% of the Jewish population here are ספרדים, who were and are close to אמונה and tradition, and almost NEVER ‘anti’. Even among the secular אשכנזים, there are far more who are at least ‘sympatish’ than you think. A Yiddishe Neshoma is a powerful thing, don’t underestimate it…
That being said, there was and is a very vocal minority, who may very well be connected ברוחניות to the aforementioned ‘Erev Rav’, who constantly agitate against Yiddishkeit, in favor of כל תועבות שבעולם, and for מחלוקת and hate between the different groups of Yidden who live here. They used to do this in the name of Zionism and Socialism, but those ideas went out of style. Now they just ape the ‘Progressive’ דור המבול culture and ideology (mostly) coming out of America. In one of their latest spins, they named their preferred political party the ‘Democrats’… As if that’s what we need here…
I have more important things to do with my time than to explain to you all of the intricacies of what goes on in ארץ ישראל today, and who’s on first and who’s in left field… The bottom line is – the majority of Yidden here are much closer to Yiddishkeit than you think. Many of them are descendants of the VICTIMS of the old Zionists (i.e. ספרדים and child Holocaust survivors who were taken from Yiddishkeit by force, as is well documented.) Yelling and screaming about what happened decades ago is not what will be מקרב them. If you are serious about fighting the after-effects of the old Zionists, and the current generation of ‘Erev Rav’ wannabes, IMHO the best way to do so is to be מקרב Yidden, or to help those who do.
Just a little anecdote. Shortly after the terrible שמחת תורה pogrom last year, I was in a Seforim/Judaica store near where I live (in an area with a mixed population). Someone came to buy a pair of ציצית. The seller told him that he’s out of tzitzis, and so are all of the tzitzis producers IN ALL OF ISRAEL, because someone started a campaign to convince soldiers going in to Gaza to take tzitzis to wear as a זכות, and it became so popular that ALL THE MANUFACTURERS IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY couldn’t keep up… You may recall the pictures on this site of Yeshiva Bochurim tying tzitzis for soldiers last year. It took several weeks until the stores could be restocked…
those who live under the zionists are more entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they see firsthand what the monsters surrounding them are up to.
But not according to somejew’s crooked ‘halacha’ according to which pikuach nefesh concerns re the eight million , do not exist …
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.somejewiknow said – “those who live under the zionists are less entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they are more noegea b’duvar”
I guess so, if they still existed. Those who are clueless about what is really going on here aren’t נוגע בדבר. In fact, they aren’t even נוגע altogether…
ZSK- “Charedim call me a Zionist, the RZ public considers me very Charedi-leaning.”
I’ve noticed a lot of American expats feel that way. We don’t fit exactly into the various boxes… Maybe that’s why we are capable of seeing that the home-grown Israelis also don’t necessarily fit exactly into the boxes they sometimes make for themselves…
so then Americans shouldnt choose their president. They are נוגע בדבר
No democracy should allow their citizens to vote, they are all נוגע בדבר
there should be no parents’ board in schools because they are נוגע בדבר
etc etc etc.Katan has not mentioned – even once – what he thinks will happen to 8 million innocents in EY.
He simply does not seem to care.
Katan will support hatsole in the US . and any other lifesaving organization.
He cares about pikuach nefesh.
But that is minused by 8 million.
8 million innocents condemned by katan to …..
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.Evalimoshavlo, hilarious! I indeed heard this from school officials: don’t worry, trust us, we know better what your kid needs.
>>>In fact, the Chazon Ish himself didn’t think the Zionist “State” would last more than 50 years at most
Wow. It’s been many years since I last heard anyone make that claim. (The claim used to be 40 years) Nowadays most people deny it and point out that there was never any actual verifiable source who claimed to have heard that from him . Those who knew him deny it being the type of thing he would have said. There a simple reason even anti-Zionists no longer claim the CI said it. Had the Chazon Ish really made such an off target prediction it would call his general assessment about the state of Israel into question.
If anything the Chazon Ish said that “Zionism” as the movement was in his time will not last more than 40 years into the state’s existence. There is no evidence that he said that either but at least it is true that in the late 1980s and certainly the late 1990s people were already saying that the Zionist movement of Mapam, Mapai, Makki, Herut etc no longer exists . When was the last time anyone heard from Hashomer Hatzeir? etc.
Yaakov Yosef – Yes, we don’t fit perfectly into the boxes, and Israelis definitely don’t fit the checkboxes they claim to. It’s also why so many Anglos tend to eventually start their own Shuls and institutions – because of not totally fitting into mainstream Israeli society.
ujm – No. It wasn’t an excellent point. It was stupid, but definitely what could be expected from an Appalachian Transcarpathian.
@zsk
I pretty sure that my point was taken from vayoel moshe when discussing the general disgrace that is the leadership of agudas yisroel under the Zionist Stateif there is a disgrace its the leadership of satmar
yankelberel- CONGRATULATIONS!! Your decision to call the Satmar Rebbe a disgrace has made you the lucky winner of one free ticket straight to gehennom. (terms and conditions apply, void with teshuva)
why do people on both sides of this debate think it is anywhere near okay to speak lashon hara (really motzi shem ra) about the gedolei olam who also exist on both sides and are thousands of times smarter and more righteous than them
I hope everyone on this thread knows the gemara that likens someone who speaks lashon hara about talmidei chachamim to an apikores
….. when discussing the general disgrace that is the leadership of agudas yisroel under the Zionist State.
[part of original quote by somejew]
——“… the leadership of agudas yisroel under the Z state . ”
Meaning the successive and collective mo’etset gdolei hatorah [plus the other non members of the mo’etses] who guided agudas yisroel from 1948 till 2025 .
They supposedly are a ‘general disgrace’ …. according to somejew .
Which does not earn any tickets to gehinnom. According to ard , at least.
Only calling the leadership of [nowadays] satmar a disgrace . This is the only way , again according to ard at least , to gain acceptance in gehinnom.
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Talking about efah ve’efah …….
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.No answer yet about pikuach nefesh of millions .
By what valid halachik process were their p/n protections magically stripped ?
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.@somejewiknow – I wasn’t talking about R’ Teitelbaum. That leaves exactly three people I could be referring to.
Ok . So lets rephrase it to make it fit better with the original intention of my post.
If it is permitted to call the leadership of agudas yisroel under the Zionist State [48-25] a ‘general disgrace’ [as per somejew] ,meaning the collective gdolim who led AY, then this moniker would fit better to satmar’s current leadership.
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.Hello ?
Did you receive my comment before yomtov ?@yankel-berel
I’m not sure what your issue it. I was very explicitly referencing Vayoel Moshe and his criticism of Agudas Yisroel leadership. Take it up with him (the one you claim not to be speaking badly about).To be clear (if you care to understand anything being discussed here), the leadership of Agudas Yisroel is emphatically a lay leadership with loose ties to the “moetzes”. The consistent lack of Torah leadership is both one of the defining aspects and key points of criticism against Agudas Yisroel both from within and without.
That being said, Vayoel Moshe also lays out the Torah-sourced reasons why even tzaddikim with “daas Torah” can fall into the heresy of Zionism, H”y.
>>>To be clear (if you care to understand anything being discussed here), the leadership of Agudas Yisroel is emphatically a lay leadership with loose ties to the “moetzes”…
You would be hard pressed to find an organization more controlled by laymen than the Satmar affiliated Edah HaChariedis . The lay people in Agudah do not put out Kol Koreys in the name of the moetzes without their knowledge. The Edah HaChareidis does so on a weekly basis. It is alleged that Rav Yisroel Yaakov Fisher the Raavad of the Edah HaChareidis used to say that he reads the pashkevilin on his way home from Mincha to find out what he signed on last night…
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