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What an insult to the tens of thousands of actual soldiers who risk their lives to protect everyone, including the Charedim, who have such a lack of hakaras hatov. How painful to families of soldiers who were killed or maimed or lost parnassah to see so many people expressing how they don’t want a part of that.
And the whole Torah protects thing? How absurd that Torah is powerful enough to stop rockets and missiles that renders hishtadlus derech hateva unnecessary… but when it comes to stopping this alleged gezeira against Torah, then Torah isn’t enough and you actually need hishtadlus derech hateva.
Stay in your Beit Medrash. learn and daven against this “gezeira”, but don’t shine a light on yourselves and publicize how little you want to sacrifice for Israel’s defense. You really think the State is apikursus and not representative of Judaism? Then act like the golus Jews you think are and keep your head down.
Simcha, you seem to hold a lot of anger. Could be?
Simcha,
Seems like you don’t believe Torah magna umatzla. This is not an insult to those who believe each person should want to join the army. This is a protest that the Israel government is changing the status quo. Do the RZ who join the army do so because they are forced to, or because they believe it is their mitzvah? This should not be an insult at all.
As far as why they are going out to an atzeres tefillah? That is already long established protocol from the times of Chanukah. The avoidah by Purim (a gezairah against the guf) was to daven and fast and do mitzvos. By chanukah, when it was shas shmad, the Bnei Yisroel went out and countered it physically.
Simcha613: You are wrong. This is not a lack of hakaras hatov. Even the Hesder Yeshivas understand the problem. The Rosh Yeshiva of the Sderot Hesder Yeshiva is joinging this protest; he said that after they finish going after the Chareidi boys, they will come for the Hesder Boys as well. This is about people in power who hate HaShem and hate Torah and want to see a “Jewish State” with no Torah at all.
No one said, at any point, that we are on a level where no hishtadlus is necessary, or that there is no need for hakaras hatov towards the actual soldiers. (Hint – the ones making the most noise against the Chareidim are not the soldiers…)
The core issue here is that “hishtadlus” does not permit גילוי עריות and going OTD. This has much less to do with learning Torah, than it has to do with keeping Torah. In the Litvish language “learning Torah” is a code word for all of Yiddishkeit. לצורך העניין, the Chassidish and Sephardim are speaking Lithuanian.
On the Chiloni side, the ones pushing this issue do not have the interests of the IDF at heart. They are out to “bring the Chareidim into the Israeli mainstream”, which is dog whistle language for OTD.
What we have here are two sides who know full well what they want and why, and what the other side wants and why, but they can’t say what they really mean, (from the Chareidi perspective for the very reason you started off with…) so they use code language.
I don’t know what the Gedolim hold the point of the “march” is, but my best guess is they are trying to show that this issue is dear to too big a segment of the population for the AG/SC dictatorship to disenfranchise. In this context “Atzeres Tefilah” is code language for “no violence”.
By the way, if it is so much easier to be a Chareidi than to be a soldier, and the whole Chareidi thing is just about taking the easy way out and “not wanting to sacrifice”, so why don’t the Chilonim who don’t like the army go become Chareidim? Who is stopping them? אדרבה, let all the Chilonim (and especially all the girls) leave the IDF to go to Yeshiva (and Beis Yaakov or Neve Yerushalayim or something) and learn how to live as Jews, and then ONLY Chareidim (who never interrupted between Tefillin Shel Yad and Shel Rosh…) will serve in a real Halachic army…
The reality is that no other segment of Israeli society sacrifices more for what they believe in than the Chareidim do. Even among those who serve in the IDF, most are not active combat soldiers. Which also means that once they finish their three year stint, they do little if any Miluim. Being a real Chareidi is a life commitment, that encompasses every aspect of one’s life, for the entire duration of one’s life.
Im jealous of the Bnei Torah they are listening to their Rabbanim, no different than Moshe Rabbeinu saying מי לה׳ עלי and all of shevet Levi join him
this gzera of forced enlistment and arrests of innocents is plainly illegal and
renders those commanding the arrests liable as kidnappers
there is no law on the books authorising those arrests
and conversely there is a law on the books regulating the deferment of torah learners
anyone believing otherwise has fallen for a fraud engineered by crooks masquerading as legal experts
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.Simcha: The Zionists army deserves no hakoros hatov whatsoever. The Zionists triggered the last 75+ years of constant and endless wars and terrorism. They set the bed. Now they want those who aren’t responsible for their terrible problems to fix it for them. Let them fix it themselves.
Aguda sent me this: … in protest of the harassment and shocking imprisonment of lomdei Torah in Eretz Yisroel .. for the protection of lomdei Torah, and for the honor of Torah to be uplifted throughout the world.
What do I do if I think that protecting the honor of the Torah requires admitting that imprisonment of those who are not responding to army letters is not really “shocking”. And if you think that it is “shocking”, then why did you set up students for this by advising them not to respond in the first place?
I don’t think all complicated terutzim answer simcha’s point: communities that don’t feel they need to do anything for the threat from the enemies, suddenly march to protect themselves from fulfilling their civil duty. As YYA seems to admit, the language is “elevated” – “Torah” means “Yiddishkeit” and even those who don’t speak this “loshon” will use it here. Similarly, “gilui arayot” does not mean sleeping with your sister, but to the horror of being exposed to non-religious girls in the same Army unit … just request only unmarried girls in the unit …
I think we understand the fears of the community, but you should also understand that the self-serving cries of Torah using non-truthful loshon is not answering the questions people have.
@Yaakov Yosef A
The core issue here is that “hishtadlus” does not permit גילוי עריות and going OTD.Thats a huge exaggeration. Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So its like what came first the chicken or the egg?
They are out to “bring the Chareidim into the Israeli mainstream”, which is dog whistle language for OTD.
Or maybe its just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?why don’t the Chilonim who don’t like the army go become Chareidim?
Thats not a question. Its hard to become frum if use to being a chiloni just to get out of the army. But if you are always frum and just want to balme yeshiva on it yes thats an easy way out
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