Matzav Inbox: What Is Going On With These Weddings?

Not a single argument here!

I guess I am hanging out with the wrong crowd. I only get invited to takana weddings. Are these over-the-top weddings really so commonplace being made by middle-class families?

The issue of the wealthy making over-the-top weddings has been another discussion on another thread. This one seems to indicate that “regular” people are also doing it.. As weddings start again this week, can people please comment on the number of weddings you have been to this week that were as this letter writer describes.

Gosh. So many ideas for what other people are supposed to do with their own money.

The best thing to do when you pass a rich looking house is to say “Baruch Hashem. May Hashem protect them and give them Nachas as well.”

As for what they are supposed to do with their money, Chazal עירובין נד say that they should enjoy it. חטוף ואכול חטוף ואישתי, דעלמא דאזלינן מיניה כהלולא דמי

I think there are a few very significant aspects to this that most people overlook. I’m only talking here about people who can actually afford this sort of thing, people doing it on credit to keep up with appearances are another story entirely.

The more money you’re used to seeing (in business or personal life), the higher the amount that seems normal to you. $1 was a lot to us when we were kids, I would assume $100 is not a meaningless amount to most of us now, and Bill Gates loses money if he stops working to pick up that same $100. A $200,000 chassunah for someone who makes $2 million a year is the same percentage of income as a $20,000 takanah chassunah to someone making $200,000. When someone who can afford it makes a giant production, it is not as big a deal to them as we think it is. It’s a much bigger deal for a normal guy to make a $50k wedding than it is for a rich guy to make a $500k wedding. The world is a different place to different people. If someone’s job involves regularly signing deals for tens of millions, then a few hundred thousand is just not as big a deal to them anymore. If your job is to spend your day hopping between offices of the top 10 lawyers in Manhattan, after a while a lot of luxuries become normal. To make a wedding that is considered tastefully nice for this kind of person is a wedding that is crazy for most others, because those others aren’t regularly turning down a $1,000,000 business deal as too small. I absolutely will tell you it’s for the simcha, because we just don’t know what is normal to other people. Yeah, a $20,000 custom suit for a wedding is crazy. Until you realize this person spent the last 20 years in rooms with people wearing custom suits witha price of $50,000.

Additionally, the entire tachlis of Hashem giving people a lot of money (as far as I’ve been told) is for tzedakah and chessed. The gvirim of klal yisroel rise to this occasion to an incredible degree. They’re supporting more yeshivos and people learning than any time in history since maamad har sinai. Hatzalah takes in millions just in the funds they match for the yearly campaigns. Chai Lifeline, RCCS, tomchei shabbos, I don’t have the days it would take to list all the good done in klal yisroel largely enabled by the funding of our “moguls”. These are people who fund half the chassunos in Eretz Yisroel and don’t blink. We’ll happily demand they fund whatever we need in our lives, and they do, and we have the chutzpah to turn around and say they can’t enjoy themselves with the rest of the money they make because we can’t control our kinah?

“Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Gone. For a few hours of noise and lights and fake “wow.”
And let’s call it what it is—it’s sick. Sick. Sick.

This is again a kind of person who is living in a different world than you and me. For most of us, making in a good year in the low 6 figures, that would indeed be sick. But I guarantee you 90%+ of the people making a chasunah nice enough for you to notice are giving away tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a night just to mishulachim, not to mention organizations. I would think very few people have made a chasunah with Motty Steinmetz and not given out more to tzedakah at that wedding than the cost of the wedding. We can’t imagine the tzedakah going on in the world. How many chassunos has a guy we’re all complaining about made for other people? How many organizations are able to go make “a few hours of noise and lights and fake “wow”” for sick kids in hospitals because of this kind of guy? We can’t tell someone who’s giving a chomesh+ on a large salary (not to mention investments) that he can’t make a wedding for his kid at a level he will thoroughly enjoy and he can easily afford.

“And all this is happening while people in our community are choking on tuition bills,
juggling credit cards, figuring out how to pay rent, how to marry off children, how to survive.”

And do you know why there is still a yeshiva to send high tuition bills despite the small number of people paying full tuition, and why the struggling person in our community is still able to keep up the juggling act with the credit cards? Because the mogul we are demanding cut his spending is personally making up the gap in the yeshiva budget between what they need and what tuition brings in. Because the person we’re angry at for how much they spent on food at their chassunah matched every donation given to tomchei shabbos for the last 5 years. It’s very sad that people have monetary difficulties, just like it is sad that people have other difficulties. But I don’t demand everyone over 60 wears hearing aids just because many people need them.

“There’s no limit anymore. No sense of normal. No sense of “this is enough.””

I agree, everyone should be completely normal. When people knock on a rich guy’s door, he should give them an $18 check. He should give $360 to his kid’s yeshiva campaign, a few bucks here and there to large organizations, and that’s it. Oh, there is a crisis in the community and we need to make an organization to deal with it? Well, you better not ask mr. normal for any unusual donation, and you better come to his house during normal hours where you wouldn’t feel bad knocking on anyone else’s door. Oh, the gedolim need money to keep their mosdos open b/c the government cut off funding? Well, I hope they convince the knesset to restore funding, because no one would expect a group of normal guys who know when enough is enough to rally together and raise literally $100 million dollars in what, a week? When people live lives that naturally have high limits, and step up to fulfill the limitless demands we make of them, we can’t then go slap limits on the things that they enjoy.

“The pressure this creates is unbelievable.
More debt. More stress.”

Pressure this creates? Taking on debt to make events like this? That’s insanity on the part of people feeling pressure. Usain bolt can run almost 28 MPH, are you feeling pressure to keep up? Saudi Sheikhs drive gold Lamborghinis, are you trying to apply for a car loan for one? In all the classic shtetl stories, not even in Chelm would the wagon driver or grocery store owner feel pressure to make a chassunah as big as the gvir. That’s not who you are. That’s not what you should do.

There are definitely problems here. Some people are doing it just to show off. I happen to think it is not a lot of people, but that is definitely a terrible way to be. A WhatsApp status dedicated solely to tracking weddings made by “moguls” is absolutely gross and sick. But that is a lack of maturity, a lack of tznius, and a problem with jealousy. As for comparisons, that is 100% a problem with attendees and not the people making events. Why are we content to sit by our friends’ weddings judging them? That says a lot more about the people doing the judging than the people making the wedding.

Look, recreating seudas halivyasan early is not the way I personally would go for a wedding either, regardless of how financially feasible it was. But who gets to determine the max level that’s ok? There’s always someone who thinks it’s too much. Bottom line, if you must spend time looking at yenem, spend more time looking at how he funds the shul you go to, the sforim you learn there, the yeshiva that taught you how to learn them, and less time on what happens with the portion of hard earned money he doesn’t spend on everyone else.

“Additionally, the entire tachlis of Hashem giving people a lot of money (as far as I’ve been told) is for tzedakah and chessed.”

Was Avraham Avinu expected to give away his whole wealth? He even split up with his nephew because of the abundance. Just give it out to all the poor. Yaakov Avinu had so much as well. If he had enough almonds to give as a gift to an Egyptian ruler, why not run around looking for whom else to give it to?

Do we at all ask this question about people who save up and never use it even for themselves? No. In fact, people often admire them, while the Gemara (I mentioned above, and others) says it’s not a good idea. Could it be that this great advice we have, for where the rich people are supposed to put their money, can perhaps stem from say, jealousy? Why else would it only come up when you are faced with the abundance aspect, but not when you hear about sums of investments or other times?

It’s also not a greatness to bash “the frum” as being obsessed eith gashmius. In fact, it’s simply a weird statement. Are we obsessed with atoms? All day long, that’s all I interact with. Yes, we’re made of Gashmius. And people enjoy different things, while they are all by nature material and not abstract esoteric subliminal ethereal cosmic essence of glory.

Halevi
The frum are _not_ obsessed with gashmiyus?
They are. Deal with it. Rivers are blue the sky is blue. Reality exists

NOYB
I hear your point you have a point but,
Let’s give an extreme example to make it more obvious.
Let’s say there’s a really poor town, or a really poor city and your a gvir, and you make a huge wedding in a really poor town. Would you not consider that flaunting.
If you have something and show it to the have nots without caring about their feelings there’s somewhere flaunting or insensitivity there. I have a better example but you get the point

NOYB, > Even assuming the spending on weddings, etc. is foolish, given how many wonderful organizations and institutions there are,

Again, H’V I’ll be counting someone else’s money and diminish their zechus. But my point is – ideally, they should use their best judgment in allocating their funds. I think all would agree that someone good in business would be qualified to allocate for social needs.

Giving for more learning/spiritual needs might sound controversial. In fact, many rabonim are probably annoyed when baalei tzedokah press them how to run the institutions. But we live in the world without recognized leaders, and someone has to decide – if not how to run a mossad, but which mossad should be supported. If you are simply giving to a particular rosh yeshiva, you are still making an implied decision to support this yeshiva and not an another one. So, baalei chesed are making such decisions – so their judgment is important.

So, presuming large weddings are not reasonable (which is subject to debate), this shows that they might make same mistakes in distributing chesed – probably affected by which institution gives them a bigger “honor” or how flashy their booklets are. This is affecting whole communities! So, see if you can help your local gvir.

I do know that some gvirim take their responsibilities seriously. I know one who gave a small building to a mossad to run a specific type of chesed (a very reasonable one, in my estimate), and later found out that the mossad rented out the place and used the funds for general revenues. He sued and got his money back eventually.

Qwerty- there are a lot of people here who judge very unfavorably and who express hatred of all yidden who do not practice like them – maybe they are Hasidic maybe they are secular. There’s a lot of lashon hara here too. People think before they went to cheder and yeshiva here that they are so holy. Then they say terrible things about other yidden. Here. A lot of people.

We’re told the first bais hamikdashwas destroyed bec of the three cardinal sins and was rebuilt 70 years later. The second was destroyed because of sinas chinam and we have still not married to rebuild it 2000 years later.

The eibishter loves each of us – even the sinners – more than any of us has ever loved anyone. Should wealthy people flaunt their well? Of course, not. But there are a lot of people here who think they are so holy because they learn and they daven three times a day, but say terrible things about other yidden.

I think they will be surprised to find out after 120 years that HKBH throws away all their learning as meaningless as they never learned what was important. They never learned to love your fellow as yourself. All those mitzvahs thrown away.

I think I have written something similar in the past but Ill repost since this is a topic so dear to me.
1) The idea that its theri money and they give tzedaka so they are entitled to be ostentatious. A jew is never “entitled”. The money isn’t yours and its form hashem. You won’t take the money with you. When you splash like that, are you doing something that brings you closer to Hashem or not? What do you think the chafertz chaim would say? Do you think its what hashem wants? It makes no difference if you can afford it or if you give 1 zillion to tzedka. Jews are never entitled to be ostentatious. Its a detachment
2) But mind your own business or just don’t go if you don’t like it. Two things on that point.
A) We have children who see it. Why do think their sheifa becomes when they see fancy destinatiion weddings etc. Oh I get it, its all about what we teach in the house and then they won’t be jealous. Like we live in a cave? They don’t talk about in shul and yeshiva? Its not all over the place in your face? Its not cool and glitzy?
B)Lets say I am jealous because its cool and I am a human being subject to a yezter hara. Sure I should work on myself. but you don’t think sticking it in everyone’s face makles that extra hard? We all know when it comes to tznuis in dress that a lady can’t walk around not tznuis and just see men should work on themsleves. people have yetzer haras. There is somehting called tznuis in our every day actions too. That very much includes our broader lifestyle should be tznuis.
3) It definitely raises the bar. But wait if I can’t afford it, I should just not to do it. Yes but it trickles down to rasing the standards for a the avarage simcha too. The classic example I offer is the new fad to invite people for dessert by a shabbos sheva brachos. Now I need to pay for a party planner and sweet table. When we grew up (when ziady was young and lived in flatbush Brooklyn) this wasn’t a style. Now it is. How does it come to be? Because if yenim does a fancy hotel the next guy at least does a fancy local shabbos invitying crowds. And then the next guy does less fancy but still needs to be normal and invite people for dessert because thats whats done. The same is true foe tommeua (its expected now) and hoostess gifts. So we natrually raise the bar. Please don’t come and tell me oh one should just ignore it and do we he can afford. It doesn’t work like that. Noone wants to be a socially off neb. We don’t do vorts in a house with cake and shnap now, and we can’t do that with shabbos sheva brachas or other society norms either.

The bottom line is the wealthy are not entitled and have to lower the bar. Make it nice and batumpt but not over the top

A Rabbi once told me that there’s nothing wrong with extravagance as long as you acknowledge that it’s provided by Hashem.

To keith

Are you implying that I’m the example of a Jew hater? I’m asking because I’m the only person you mentioned by name.

To Chaim87

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, very few people are willing to even consider Mussar. Let me share a story. I used to be friendly with a Chabad Rabbi who was and is totally obsessed with money. He told me about a Lubavicher who went into business and became fabulously wealthy. This Rabbi went to his house to see how much money he could schnorr from him. The Rabbi told me that he was shocked at how this Gvir was living. He said, “If I had his money, I’d have the biggest mansion in the world.” And then he added, “The most incredible thing is that I could see that his wife is happy.” This Rabbi’s wife is even dirtier than he is. The point is that this Rabbi went to the mogul to see how much he could take from him, but Hashem gave him a mussar lesson that living for wealth isn’t the way to achieve happiness. Obviously, he just walked away thinking that the tycoon is a fool.

Halevi,

You are one hundred percent correct.. Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolei HaDor have to set the trend for society. Otherwise, what makes one a gadol HaDor if you can’t lead by example. Go back 3000 years of and into Jewish History and see who were emesdike leaders who led rather than being led. Learn some Jewish history. The gashmiyus has taken over the roshei hayeshiva and gedolei hador, if there are still any.

Cheskib, we _should_ do that. People should live within their means. Imagine how much.money and less stress people will have.

Dovid bt. Not everything your “told” is correct.
I think people who flaunt their wealth lack _morals_
And morals are gods law, God holds everyone accountable.

Qwerty – my response appears not to have been published yet. No not your initial post. There are a few people who post a lot who routinely insult Jews who don’t practice the way they practice. Particularly secular Jews but also religious Jews who don’t believe the same things thy do. And they are regular commenters.

The eibishter loves each of us so much we can’t even conceive. And yet these people say terrible things about His children whom He loves more than we can imagine. They weren’t raised to love Judaism. This is where you get children throwing rocks at cars on shabbos. Do you think anyone EVER came to yiddishkeit, to a loving relationship with G-d from a rock thrown at them on shabbos? No. The consequence of that is they say these are horrible people. I want nothing to do with them or their G-d. Secular people come to G-d from love. From being invited for shabbos. From seeing how kind religious Jews are. Not how hateful.

Imagine someone saying the worst things about your child. This is the lashon hara so many people say here. They think G-d wants their prayers? Their learning? No way.

So many hateful people here. I didn’t read all the responses. The lashon hara was not directed at least at your original post. I didn’t read everything here.

I think these Baal lashon haras will be surprised when they get to Shemayim.

It’s clear from chazal pesahim 119 that wealthy people who spend money on tzedakot and mitzvot are not subject to scrutiny and jealousy. Today, people are scrutinizing despite the tremendous amounts of hesed and tzedaka being done by these same people. This is absolutely a people problem. Maybe the rich guy should take in to consideration peoples negative eye when making a party? I dno.

Every person Rosh or poor is tested with enjoying from this world lishma. If a person eats ice cream because it’s a delicious treat that he enjoys, who says that’s any different than making a wedding to show off. FYI the Gemara – pesahim 8b – is clear that partial lishma works. So even if they are showing off but part of it is to celebrate the missva of simhat hattan and kallah, Hakarat Hatov it’s not as bad as the guy eating ice cream simply because he enjoys it.

If a big talmid chacham makes an event that is less than the norm or what’s considered socially acceptable no one would think twice. No one will judge him for not fitting the script or hitting the bar. If you know why not you’ll understand why rich people aren’t raising the bar. What’s the difference between you and the talmid chacham that makes it ok for him not to meet the bar but not you- that’s your answer.

No one said to go make a wedding in a poor town. A person is living in his community among his peers. Normally rich people move to go live somewhere with only rich people. The fact that they stay in the community and support it is mind boggling in itself.

In my view there’s nothing to talk about. People should stop complaining about others, especially on this forum where zero toelet will come out. A bunch of not rich people discussing rich weddings- what does that do for anyone. Maybe the rich guy needs to bear in mind the frailty of some Jews today who don’t know how to be happy with what they have and teach their children that everything is from Hashem and not to be jealous of others. Hashem blesses everyone and we all serve him with what we have. We should see a rich wedding and tell our kids look at how he uses the money Hashem blesses him with for a mitzva- not bad the guy, that’s bad hinuch. For heavens sake were complaining about a mitzva. Why don’t you complain about winter break or something…..

@DovidBT
I can’t talk for your rabbi, but I think one of two things.
Either he meant to say there is nothing wrong with a nicer more gracious lifestyle if you acknowledge its from hashem. Or I hate to say it but its not what most rabbis hold. Extravagance is destructive to society on so many levels form tznuis to social well being. Do you think the chafetz chaim would approve of that? It also drags others into it and brings jealousy. Its not the jewish way

@qwerty613
Well said, And by the way, there is a tzadik that I should call out, the Schrons who are bnillionares and yes they have what they need including an apt in EY, but they are not loud and slashy. They live very simple and don’t do things over the top.
I also left out that we are in golus and its not our place to live like this