Reply To: Techeiles 🔵❎🐌☑️🐟

Sam2:

I like how you expect me to know what you’re referring to without mentioning that you are responding to something I said more than a year ago, which really had nothing to do with techeiles, and in the two pages since then, the discussion has been back to techeiles. But for those who don’t know what Sam is referring to, here’s the discussion from page 13:

mariokart said:

“whats an example of something thats “patur avul assur”??”

Patur Aval Assur said:

puncturing an abcess to remove the pus (on shabbos) when you’re not doing it because of tzaar

Sam2 said:

mariokart: Any Issur D’rbannan.

Sam2 said:

PAA: Your example was not of something Patur Aval Assur. By Mapis Mursa, it’s either Chayav Chatas or Patur UMuttar. If it’s L’hotzi Leicha then it’s Ein Tzricha L’gufa and Chazal weren’t Gozer in this case. If it’s La’asos Pesach, it’s Chayav because now it’s Tzricha L’gufa.

Patur Aval Assur said:

Sam2: Tosfos in kesubos (6a s.v. hai) says that it’s only patur umuttar because of tzaar. If there’s no tzaar then it’s patur aval assur.

The Gemara in Shabbos 107a says:

????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????

Rashi there says:

????. ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????

Tosafos in Kesubos says:

??? ??’ ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? (??? ?? ??.) ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???

I was interpreting that as saying that it’s only muttar when you’re alleviating your ???. Sam is interpreting it as saying that because people have ???, the Rabbis were never gozer on this case and therefore it’s muttar regardless of your personal circumstances. I actually think that the lashon is mashma more like Sam, especially the Bartenura in Eduyos 2:5 who says ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????.

However, the Magen Avraham (328:32) writes:

???? ??? ????? ?”? ???”?

Now if there was never any gezeira, why would it be better to have a non-Jew do it? It’s completely muttar! However, if you say that since it’s a melacha she’aina tzericha l’gufa, it’s b’etzem assur miderabanan, but b’makom tza’ar they allowed you to do it (and in a case where there is no tza’ar it would be assur) then it makes sense why it would be better to have a non-Jew do it.

I think the Mishnah Berura might support me. In sif kattan 88 he writes:

??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????

which implies that it is b’etzem assur, but because of tza’ar the Rabbis overrode the issur. And in sif kattan 90 he writes:

???”? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????

in which he could be saying that they were never gozer in the first place, but it is notable that he said ?????? ??? instead of ???? ???, which implies a case by case basis.

And the Aruch Hashulchan (338:36) explicitly says:

??? ??????? ???? ?”? ????? ???? ????

So I think a case can be made either way.