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  • #596429

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Is there a large percentage of frum Jews that wears techeiles?

     

    #1057404

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Large? Larger than what?

    #1057405

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Larger than a negligible amount

    #1057406

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Negligible in what context.

    #1057407

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    What I meant was is it just a negligible minority or is it a full blown revolution?

    #1057408

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I realized that.

    My question really was what you consider to be a significant percentage.

    If it is 5%? 15%? 25%?

    What is your threshold?

    In any event, in my circles, it is 0%

    I have seen people wearing it occasionally.

    I don’t think it would qualify as a revolution, because the percentage seems to be relatively static. After some 100 years of knowing about these things, the amount of people using them does not seem to be growing. At least to me.

    #1057409

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “In any event, in my circles, it is 0%”

    Does that mean that there is a correlation between certain circles and techeiles?

    #1057410

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes. There is.

    #1057411

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So what is the correlation?

    #1057412

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, people in the same circles often have the same or similarly holding rabbis.

    #1057413

    avi e
    Participant

    In my experience I have seen many religious zionists wear techelet, while yeshivish people generally do not. Interestingly, Rav Pinchas Sheinberg, who wears many pairs of tzitzit tied in different ways, in order to make sure that he is wearing a pair that is tied the correct way, does not wear any pairs of techelet.

    #1057414

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The reason why Rav Sheinberg wears many pairs is not to be yotzei according to everyone. The reason is that each additional pair is an additional mitzva. And why is techeiles a zionist thing?

    #1057415

    hello99
    Participant

    Breslov and Zilberman wear techeiles along with certain National Religious.

    #1057416

    I don’t think he said that wearing techeiles is a zionist thing, but that generally they are the ones to wear it.

    The exceptions that I know of are Breslov and I guess Radziners.

    #1057417

    It’s Zionist b/c it’s blue and white.

    #1057418

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If it’s not a zionist thing then why are they generaly the ones to wear it?

    #1057419

    hello99
    Participant

    First of all, it is generally accepted that techeiles will not return until Moshiach comes, and they ascribe messianic significance to the State of Israel

    Secondly,not one of the Gedolim wear techeiles, which makes it a non-starter to most normative Chareidim. Mizrachi believe in “independent thinking” and are less dependent on the Gedolim.

    #1057420

    If it’s not a zionist thing then why are they generaly the ones to wear it?

    Perhaps your questions should be directed to Zionist World News. I imagine that the answer lies somewhere alongside what double standard and hello99 said.

    #1057421

    Josh31
    Participant

    “generally accepted that techeiles will not return until Moshiach comes”

    Please provide sources for this.

    #1057423

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Secondly,not one of the Gedolim wear techeiles”

    That is a false statement.

    #1057424

    avi e
    Participant

    The Radzyners and Breslov wear a different color of techelet than the religious zionists: theirs is made from a squid, which was researched by the Radzyner Rebbe, Gershon Henoch Leiner in the 1800s. Later, in the early 1900s, Rav Yisroel Herzog, who was the chief Rabbi of Ireland, decided that the techelet comes from the Murex Trunculus snail. Even today, you can see people wearing both colors, which are visibly different. The Murex Trunculus techelet is considerably more expensive.

    #1057425

    IOW, even amongst the techeilis wearers there are multiple opinions of what techeilis is, each opinion excluding the others. And the most common and prevalent opinion is that all these mutually exclusive opinions of what is techeilis, are incorrect and thus it shouldn’t be worn.

    #1057426

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That shows a level of am ha’artzus that I can only see coming from a yeshiva bochur.

    Itche: That’s a little harsh, don’t you think?

    #1057427

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There are numerous kashas on both Murex Trunculus and Cuttlefish techeiles.

    #1057428

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Second, the fact that gedolim don’t do it is a kasha on them, not on the techeiles.”

    Actually it IS a kasha on the techeiles because the gedolim have reasons for not wearing it. Maybe you should learn through the sugya and see why the gedolim don’t wear it before you start claiming that the gedolim are wrong.

    #1057429

    klach
    Member

    “Second, the fact that gedolim don’t do it is a kasha on them, not on the techeiles.”

    your level of apikorsus is exceedingly disturbing.

    “it is a kasha on them” – WHAT?!?!?!? who do you think you are, better than gedolei torah? what do you know already?!

    mods – this is a mitzvah – during a rabbinical meeting about the flatbush eiruv, one “rabbi” stood up and said Rav Moshe [ZT”L] is a rabbi and i am a rabbi. we disagree. Another rabbi immediately stood up and challenged him publicly and loudly – “how many prakinm are there in maseches eiruvin?” – the offending rabbi, needless to say, was silent. It is a mitzvah to stand up for the kavod of gedolim and assur to stand idly by while people dare disgrace them, kol shekain in public!!

    #1057430

    klach
    Member

    thanks mods!!

    #1057431

    klach
    Member

    “There are numerous kashas on both Murex Trunculus and Cuttlefish techeiles.”

    could you give some examples?

    #1057432

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    could you give some examples?

    Well, a very basic question, without knowing anything about the issue, is that they cannot both be tcheiles. So each party clearly holds the other is in error.

    #1057433

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    In the recent dafei yomi Gemara, we learned that the “strings” can be almost any color. Should those that use supposed “techeiles” be attacked if they chose to wear blue-dyed strings?

    #1057434

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The cuttlefish which the Radzyners use only turns blue with the aid of chemicals (pottassium and iron) which Rav Herzog found would turn any organic compound that color. So the cuttlefish dye had nothing to do with the turning blue which is a problem.

    One problem with the murex trunculus is that it is chemically identical to kala ilan. The gemara gives chemical tests that can distinguish between real techeiles and kala ilan. Now if they were chemically identical then no test would be able to distinguish between them. Another problem is that it doesn’t really fit into most of the Gemara’s descriptions of the chilazon (comes up once in 70 years, domeh layam, the dye is better while it’s alive, etc.) unless you deviate from the standard pshat.

    #1057435

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Should those that use supposed “techeiles” be attacked if they chose to wear blue-dyed strings?”

    Yes. The Rema states O.H. 9:5 that Ashkenazim should always wear white strings. Now if what these people are wearing is not techeiles than they are in violation of the Rema.

    Interestingly enough they would be in violation of the Mechaber also because the mechaber in that same siman says that ideally the strings should be the same color as the beged.

    #1057436

    The color of the beged (that the tzitzis is attached to) is usually white.

    #1057437

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The color of the beged (that the tzitzis is attached to) is usually white”

    Which is exactly why having blue strings (which are not techeiles) would be problematic according to both the Mechaber and the Rema.

    #1057438

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Suppose you dye the whole beged with the techeiles. Do you still need to dye the string?

    #1057439

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “In the recent dafei yomi Gemara, we learned that the “strings” can be almost any color”

    That’s why we don’t pasken from the gemara.

    #1057440

    avi e
    Participant

    A very good overview of the techelet written by the organization that makes the murex trunculus techelet can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/techelet

    #1057441

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “A very good overview of the techelet written by the organization that makes the murex trunculus techelet can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/techelet

    That overview is very one sided (understandable since it was put out by a techeiles organization) and does not discuss most of the proofs back and forth. They take for granted that the murex trunculus is the chilazon.

    #1057442

    avi e
    Participant

    Full disclosure: I wear Murex Trunculus techelet

    #1057443

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Full disclosure: I wear Murex Trunculus techelet”

    Why? Are you a religious zionist?

    #1057444

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    klach

    in the story you quoted they actually proved that the offending rabbi didn’t know basic things about the topic. You however did not prove that ItcheSrulik doesn’t know what he’s talking about. (I’m not disagreeing with you, I am merely calling into question the validity of your proof. I don’t think you needed a proof though.)

    #1057445

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Suppose you dye the whole beged with the techeiles. Do you still need to dye the string?”

    Impressive. You were mechaven to Korach’s question.

    #1057446

    optimusprime
    Member

    avi e

    Sorry to be the grammar police, but I believe it was Rav Yitzchak Herzog, not Rav Yisroel,

    #1057447

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    optimusprime

    that’s not a grammatical error, it’s a factual error.

    #1057448

    optimusprime
    Member

    Patur Aval Assur

    Thanks!

    #1057449

    hello99
    Participant

    I tried to phrase my statement as delicately as possible, but I’m not so surprised at the reactions. I will try to reply calmly to the comments.

    Josh: “generally accepted” does not need a source and is not necessarily true, however it is the perception of many people.

    ItcheSrulik: I never said any Mitzva was abrogated and do not understand your comment. I’m all in favor of independent thinking, but Halacha l’Maaseh requires a reality check, and if NO Gedolim agree, obviously your thought process is faulty.

    Patur: Instead of calling me a liar without any supporting evidence, please name a Gadol who wears techeiles. A partial list of those who do NOT includes: HaRabbonim R Elyashiv, R Scheinberg, R Shteinman, R Kaneivsky, R Vozner, R Korelitz, R Yosef, R Belsky, R Heineman, R Kaminetsky, R Forscheimer, R Roth, R Bick, and the Admorim of Satmer, Belz, Vizhnetz, Ger, Bobov, Novominsk, Boyan, Stolin, and dozens of other Poskim, Roshei Yeshivos and Rebbes. If I omitted anyone I sincerely apologize, but even if you can name a Gadol who does wear techeiles (and I’d rather avoid the debate “who is a Gadol”), he is certainly batel b’shishim.

    #1057453

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rav Hershel Shachter Shlita wears techeiles

    #1057454

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Therefore any reason that they have should be the topic of a teshuva written by one of them”

    There are a number of teshuvos out there. Rav Elyashiv Shlita, Rav Shternbuch Shlita and Rav Shlomo Miller Shlita (and probably others as well, but I don’t know offhand) all have teshuvos in which they enumerate some of the reasons to not where techeiles. The Bais Halevi also wrote a teshuva about not wearing techeiles but there are two different versions.

    #1057455

    Chacham
    Participant

    According to R Nissan Kaplan’s shiur on this inyan, there are actually many rabbbanim who do where tcheiles including

    Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg- ( he called his son to find out and was told that some of his tzitzis are tcheiles)

    Rav Zalman Nechemiah Goldberg

    And Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky told a well known rav ( who shall remain anonymous) that if he learns it up and thinks it is tcheiles than he should where it btzinah.

    Rav Chaim Kanievsky said it is like dam chamor and it is worthless but can’t hurt.

    Rav Elyashiv in a mefursam Teshuvah (kovetz teshuvas chelek 1 siman 2) says although there is many proofs to this [murux] tcheiles we could still be choshed that in later doros it will get disprooved, like the radzhiner.

    ?? ?? R nissan kaplans shiur ( can be found online in halachah 5770-55-tzitzis-2-techeles.mp3 (31.02 megs) )

    I personally where this tcheiles and so does my father and brother. I am not mizrachi . But the reason it is popular amongst the mizrachi crowd, is probably because the murux was decided as the chilazon over 70 years ago by the cheif rabbi (who then was actually a rabbi in Ireland) Reb Yitzchak Isaac Halevi Herzog ZT”L. [ who was held of in the chareidi circles] He had many proofs but could not figure out why it was not blue but rather purple. Than 20 years ago it was discovered that if you leave it in the sun for a half hour it turns blue.

    #1057456

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg- ( he called his son to find out and was told that some of his tzitzis are tcheiles)”

    What in the world does that mean? He didn’t know that his tzitzis were techeiles? Why couldn’t he just look to see if there were blue strings?

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