Reply To: OU = MO?

First of all, kudos to everybody here for managing to keep this rather touchy subject about ideas, not people. Let’s try to make it stay that way.

HaKatan:

“We’ve discussed many times that the gedolim held Zionism to be A”Z and kefirah. We are also quite clear that MO is proudly Zionist, to the point that Zionism is one of the major tenets of their faith, also as discussed. Put the two together and you get…a big problem.”

The Gedloim who said Zionism is AZ (R’ Elchonon Wasserman chief amongst them) were referring to the original, secular Zionism of the early 1900s. And what they were saying was no chiddush – Zionism was out to create a “new Jew”, unencumbered by “primitive” religion and beliefs. The Zionists of then were fiercely anti-religious, and truth be told, some still are. However, nobody who associates themselves with the D”L believes that. Don’t get me wrong; I am no fan of marrying what is essentially twentieth century nationalism, in any form, to Judaism. But it is unfair to quote what the Gedolim said about Zionism 100 years ago; they were talking about a completely different ideology.

“Read what Rav Shach and others wrote about the founder of MO and about the founder of RZ, certain successors to the above, and about MO and RZ in general.”

What exactly did he say? I was always under the impression that the Gedolim had a great amount of respect for R’ Kook, even though they vehemently disagreed with him.

Sam2:

I’ve always thought it telling that the MO/DL slogans always seem to be about both kodesh and chol. Orthodoxy and Modernity. Torah and Madda. Religion and Zionism. And while I do believe that the vast majority of MO/DL do prioritize kodesh over chol, they still seem to believe that both have inherent value. I simply do not see how that could be. What stand alone value does modernity, madda, or zoinism have? Why must they be put an such a pedestal?

“There are certainly many mixed events. However, none of those are obligatory and nothing is mandated. Someone can have a full college career at YU if he wants (and still go to interesting extracurricular speeches and stuff) and never speak with a girl. There is no “mixing” in the way you want to call it. What there is is an option for mixed things for those who feel that it is okay/acceptable.”

I don’t think anybody is saying that YU is out to force people to act inappropriately. However, I do find their institutionalized tolerance of things that are against Halacha somewhat disturbing. (Mixed events there’s what to talk about. But a “gay tolerance” club? Really?)

Ivdu:

“In regard to the gedolim quotes, especially since many were compiled after death, I find it hard to believe that they are being interpreted correctly. (Ex: the “MO is like conservative/reform” quote is in Mishnas Aharon, which is a posthumous compilation of different sayings/ hespedim from Rav Aharon zt”l, if I am informed correctly) Especially in light of the fact that is well known that Rav Aharon zt”l and Rav Soloveitchik zt”l had tremendous respect for each other”

I heard myself from R’ Meir Hershkowitz, a talmid of R’ Aharon, that R’ Aharon “fought a war against” R’ Yoshe Ber. Do you have a source that R’ Aharon had “tremendous respect” for him?