March 30, 2015 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1070640
HaKatan: “The YU guy, on the other hand, “synthesizes” the two and calls them equals.” To quote Wikipedia, citation needed.
Find me a Frum YU guy who thinks that secular studies matter as much as Torah and, well, you’d be lying, because it doesn’t exist. There might be a number of YU guys who enjoy/care about their secular studies more, but they don’t think Torah’s not important. They just think it’s not for them. Which is not right, sure. But you won’t find a YU guy who thinks there is an equal or greater Mitzvah in learning secular studies than Torah. It doesn’t exist.March 30, 2015 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1070641zahavasdadParticipant
There are people I have heard of who go to YU/Stern who are not religious, so I would not take the bet that nobody at yu doesnt think secular studies are more important that torah studies
that being said, They should be commended for taking such students, many might not have a jewish education before and it is a risk of doing Kiruv that you might let some students in. I doubt very many if any Charedi schools (Except Chabad , maybe) would let someone in if they were not religous and not throw them out if they declared themselved OTD, which YU keeps in the hope they will returnMarch 30, 2015 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1070642popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I am not the expert on these matters, but is your last post consistent with Rabbi Lamm’s book?March 30, 2015 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1070643
Even R’ Lamm would not equate Torah with secular studies. He wouldn’t make Birchos HaTorah on Aristotle.March 30, 2015 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1070644
Hakatan and SAM2- your essentially fighting a never ending battle.
Sometimes I nod my head when I read these threads. It really is a terrible Sinah and drift that has occured between two Jewish groups who both consider themselves relgious while they emphasize certain things.
Hakatan- I hate to say it, but your not being fair. Forget about this convo with Sam, because I came from an MO background. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say it over emphasizes zionism. Sometimes I felt zionism was more important to them than teaching halacha. No one every taught tznious to us, we just knew we had to wear skirts and shirts that came semi close to the elbow- but the ramifications were not important. I always loved Judaism, I just felt like it was ok, I’m Jeiwsh now let me go on with my life. So in essence your correct, there is a lack of flame there (and I am being general because I know extremly different ends of the “MO spectrum- including very frum people and people who r basically conservative, minus the driving on shabbos).
Now my question for you- how do you take that information?
“And does it really matter what aveiros some people do in the name of MO? Are you asking me to “bash” them?”
Thats what you said. That is a hurtful statement. People who grow up MO don’t know any different. They are connected, they keep Shabbos and they go to schools where tanach is taught. In a world where the Jewish people are diminishing each year, why would you even say such thoughtless statements like that. Why would you even consider bashing them? Why is that a thought that comes to mind?
When a tradgedy happens in the world, everyone rushes to find a finger to point and blame. It must be that people aren’t tznious enough, it must be that people listen to non Jewish music etc. And while I am sure they aren’t wrong, pointing fingers gets us no where. NO WHERE.
You must promote a sense of pointing the finger at yourself. Becuase what if a tradgedy happened because you refused to help that person across the street, or didn’t open up your door to someone who asked for money, or refused to have that family over for Shabbos.I’m not sitting here and saying you are the reason for disasters in the world, I don’t know you. You sound like a pretty level headed person, and you sound open to hearing others, whcih is commendable to you. But your attitude on the MO community is a destrcutive one, not prooductive.
What if it was your bad deeds that you simply cant see? Thats how I look at it. I say it was my bad deeds, how can I be a better person. Hashem didn’t create any person perfectly. There is always room for imporvment.March 30, 2015 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1070645
I am sorry that you misunderstood my post and apologize to you for any hurt that it caused you. CH”V, I had no intention of “bashing” individuals and I thought I was clear that doing so would be wrong. To be clear, it did NOT even occur to me to “bash” any individual person, MO or otherwise.
The reason I mentioned that possibility, as you wrote, is that Sam2 said that I should “put up or shut up”. So, in response to that, I wrote that if he wants me to “put up” the sins of individuals or else “shut up” then I wrote that this is not happening and also not even relevant. And, as denoted by my YW “name”, I do not claim to be anywhere near perfection.March 30, 2015 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1070646
But did he not indicate that one should make Birchas haTorah upon entering a science lab?March 30, 2015 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1070647
HaKatan- I am no expert in R’ Lamm’s writings, but if he did indicate that, it was not meant halachah lema’aseh. He did not make birchas haTorah upon enetering a science lab. If he indicated that, he meant as a hyperbole to demonstrate how valuable science is, but it is not equitable. Even according to R’ Lamm.March 30, 2015 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1070648
Hakatan- thank you for your explanation. I hope you understand my point tho- coming from that background and bH finding my way to a more halachic and torah focused lifestyle, I’m truley able to see the flaws in it. But still living among people with that lifestyle and truley just trying to love them despite the fact that as you said they might my emphasize Torah as others do, is truley eye opening. It is true, I would love to see the world more focused on torah, but to be honest I can only set myself as an example in my community, I cannt change anyone. And that means the onus is on me to show them being halachic and Toradig is meaningful and not burnsome. It also means that I must show them I still can love and respect them despite our differences.
Sorry for my extra rant- I appreciate your apology and I’m sorry that I thought that was your intensionMarch 30, 2015 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1070649
“Find me a Frum YU guy who thinks that secular studies matter as much as Torah and, well, you’d be lying, because it doesn’t exist.”
This is irrelevant to the point of absurdity. Even if you are correct, and it would be an impressive feat if this were true in the flagship institution of Torah Umada, the discussion is about the institution and movement, not the frum kids at YU who manage to ignore that particular kefirah.
To the point, again, the reason that there, unfortunately, has to be a distinction between MO and traditional observant Judaism is that MO is not only Judaism but rather a merging of Judaism with other outside influences like secular nationalism and various other ideas.
To take one (major) example:
We’ve discussed many times that the gedolim held Zionism to be A”Z and kefirah. We are also quite clear that MO is proudly Zionist, to the point that Zionism is one of the major tenets of their faith, also as discussed. Put the two together and you get…a big problem.
Read what Rav Shach and others wrote about the founder of MO and about the founder of RZ, certain successors to the above, and about MO and RZ in general.
Again, I’m sure you’re wonderful people, but the facts are what they are, as our gedolim indicated clearly, that these are deviant movements.March 30, 2015 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1070650
But that “hyperbole” is still very instructive as to the underlying values.March 30, 2015 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1070651
While the classes and campuses are indeed separate, the events, etc. are all mixed. So, practically speaking, other than the actual classes, “Yeshiva”/Stern is essentially a co-ed experience.
Who are you trying to fool and why?March 30, 2015 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1070652
In regard to the gedolim quotes, especially since many were compiled after death, I find it hard to believe that they are being interpreted correctly. (Ex: the “MO is like conservative/reform” quote is in Mishnas Aharon, which is a posthumous compilation of different sayings/ hespedim from Rav Aharon zt”l, if I am informed correctly) Especially in light of the fact that is well known that Rav Aharon zt”l and Rav Soloveitchik zt”l had tremendous respect for each other, as evidenced through stories, pictures and writings. They could be hyperbolic rhetoric (ex: statements that kippa Sruga communities are “Amalek” CH”V; or the previous quotes that RZ is “AZ”, which obviously is not meant literally) or based on misinformation. Even if they are interpreted correctly, as stated before, MO is often used as a term for those who simply don’t know or just don’t keep Halacha, and the majority who do and properly deserve the term MO are payed little attention to.
There have been and are BH so many gedolim produced by and in support of the MO viewpoint. Even if you don’t like their hashkafa, are they REALLY kofrim? Do you (or more importantly, the gedolim [not to say you aren’t one! I don’t know]) mean that with all of your heart? It’s a hard road to take. Those who disrespect Rav Soloveitchik, I’m guessing, have never drank from his wellsprings of torah and don’t know/choose to ignore his great impact on all of frum yidishkeit.
This is a pointless argument, in the effect that those biased against MO will most probably not change their opinion for any reason. They don’t have to. But it would be nice for some serious consideration to occur, something which I feel won’t hurt anybody.March 30, 2015 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1070653
Hakatan, the “events, etc.” are not all mixed. Many are, yes, but it is absolutely and simply not a “co-ed experience”. You can spend many years at YU without ever being forced to socialize with the opposite gender, and those who believe that is improper to do so, don’t.
You should be aware that there isn’t a “klal” for YU’s hashkafa. There is a variety.
Last point: No one is claiming YU/MO is perfect or doesn’t make mistakes. There can be things done which are improper. However, to say that as a whole it is illegitimate (or Amalek, or AZ, or a deviation, or whatever else) is what I take issue with.March 30, 2015 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1070654
I never heard anything about R’ Lamm shlita making a brachah when entering a science lab. But if it is true, I would marvel at him.
When I took science classes in high school, one or two teachers would say, “Look at how wonderful Hashem’s world is!” But it wasn’t said often enough. In a math class I took in college, one professor showed us how calculus can be used to explain a Gemara.
If R’ Lamm feels he should make a brachah when entering a science lab, obviously he looks at science and thinks about it in terms of Torah. He uses science to help him understand his learning, and how wonderful the tevah that Hashem created truly is. I envy someone who looks at science that way!
When we learn “secular” subjects, but learn them in order to better understand the Torah, they are not secular! That learning then becomes part of learning Torah.March 30, 2015 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1070655
HaKatan: Fine. Find me a Frum teacher or donor or board member who thinks learning Mada is more of a Kiyum than learning Torah. Again, you won’t. It doesn’t exist.
Rabbi Lamm’s book comes the closest to mentioning such a possibility. Do you know what Rabbi Lamm does 15 hours a day now? He sits and learns Torah. That’s it. He learns. He values Torah much more. He just explains why other things can have value also.
The events at YU are not “all mixed”. There are certainly many mixed events. However, none of those are obligatory and nothing is mandated. Someone can have a full college career at YU if he wants (and still go to interesting extracurricular speeches and stuff) and never speak with a girl. There is no “mixing” in the way you want to call it. What there is is an option for mixed things for those who feel that it is okay/acceptable. I guarantee you we can find major Poskim outside of the YU world who think it’s Muttar to attend a speech/presentation/booksale where there are members of the opposite gender present. It’s not a YU Chiddush.
And no, I don’t care for your anecdotal stories about people who may have called themselves “MO” and yet still did Issurim. No more than providing a story about a “Yeshivish” person who did an Issur would say something about all Yeshivish people. Show me where you see that “MO” has a systematic belief in what you claim it does–namely, that they value Mada and modernity equal to or above Torah. Until you show that, all you have is a lot of hateful hot air being spewed at perfectly Ehrlich Jews.
Your refusal to accept that there are legitimate Shittos of Zionism within Halachah is a separate issue, but less severe. At least you’re not making stuff up.
And again, unsourced comments from major Torah figures don’t help anything. I don’t know what Rav Shach said about R’ Yoshe Ber. If you want to quote it and discuss what it’s in reference to, that might lead to a conversation.March 30, 2015 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1070657
DaMoshe: It would be a nice intention theoretically, but my understanding is that Rabbi Lamm never seriously said that one should make a bracha; it was a completely theoretical idea which he disproves, which is found in his book Torah Umadda (which I have not read; this is my understanding) Also, your last point is Rabbi Lamm’s own.March 31, 2015 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1070658
Mods, not only do you ignore HaKatan’s posts insulting tens of thousands of Jews, but you also ignore my protests about them, and refuse to post them. You’re as bad as he is.March 31, 2015 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1070659
Ivdu: thank you. As I said, I didn’t know anything about it, and I was writing from a theoretical standpoint as well. I never read R’ Lamm’s book, so I can’t really comment on it.March 31, 2015 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1070660JosephParticipant
“Show me where you see that “MO” has a systematic belief in what you claim it does”
Sam, your train of thought is to keep insisting that MO has no systematic practices or beliefs, MO has no institutions and MO has no shittos or minhagim. So, really, what *is* MO? Your arguing that there really is no MO. Apparently, MO is whatever any self-defined MO person believes MO to mean to him. So you’re arguing that you can never fault MO because my MO is different than your MO, and if anyone criticizes “MO”, they’re criticizing the MOs who don’t necessarily agree with the MO things being criticized.
If someone wants to criticize Chasidus he might point to specific teachings of the Baal Shem Tov or his disciples; If someone wants to criticize Telzers he might point to the teachings and Minhagim of the Telzer Yeshiva; If someone wants to criticize the Mussar movement he might criticize positions of Rav Yisroel Salanter. But MO? You’re saying there’s no positions to it; and anything any MO group practices is not representative of other MO; so it is impossible to ever criticize it is what you’re effectively arguing.March 31, 2015 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1070661mw13Participant
First of all, kudos to everybody here for managing to keep this rather touchy subject about ideas, not people. Let’s try to make it stay that way.
“We’ve discussed many times that the gedolim held Zionism to be A”Z and kefirah. We are also quite clear that MO is proudly Zionist, to the point that Zionism is one of the major tenets of their faith, also as discussed. Put the two together and you get…a big problem.”
The Gedloim who said Zionism is AZ (R’ Elchonon Wasserman chief amongst them) were referring to the original, secular Zionism of the early 1900s. And what they were saying was no chiddush – Zionism was out to create a “new Jew”, unencumbered by “primitive” religion and beliefs. The Zionists of then were fiercely anti-religious, and truth be told, some still are. However, nobody who associates themselves with the D”L believes that. Don’t get me wrong; I am no fan of marrying what is essentially twentieth century nationalism, in any form, to Judaism. But it is unfair to quote what the Gedolim said about Zionism 100 years ago; they were talking about a completely different ideology.
“Read what Rav Shach and others wrote about the founder of MO and about the founder of RZ, certain successors to the above, and about MO and RZ in general.”
What exactly did he say? I was always under the impression that the Gedolim had a great amount of respect for R’ Kook, even though they vehemently disagreed with him.
I’ve always thought it telling that the MO/DL slogans always seem to be about both kodesh and chol. Orthodoxy and Modernity. Torah and Madda. Religion and Zionism. And while I do believe that the vast majority of MO/DL do prioritize kodesh over chol, they still seem to believe that both have inherent value. I simply do not see how that could be. What stand alone value does modernity, madda, or zoinism have? Why must they be put an such a pedestal?
“There are certainly many mixed events. However, none of those are obligatory and nothing is mandated. Someone can have a full college career at YU if he wants (and still go to interesting extracurricular speeches and stuff) and never speak with a girl. There is no “mixing” in the way you want to call it. What there is is an option for mixed things for those who feel that it is okay/acceptable.”
I don’t think anybody is saying that YU is out to force people to act inappropriately. However, I do find their institutionalized tolerance of things that are against Halacha somewhat disturbing. (Mixed events there’s what to talk about. But a “gay tolerance” club? Really?)
“In regard to the gedolim quotes, especially since many were compiled after death, I find it hard to believe that they are being interpreted correctly. (Ex: the “MO is like conservative/reform” quote is in Mishnas Aharon, which is a posthumous compilation of different sayings/ hespedim from Rav Aharon zt”l, if I am informed correctly) Especially in light of the fact that is well known that Rav Aharon zt”l and Rav Soloveitchik zt”l had tremendous respect for each other”
I heard myself from R’ Meir Hershkowitz, a talmid of R’ Aharon, that R’ Aharon “fought a war against” R’ Yoshe Ber. Do you have a source that R’ Aharon had “tremendous respect” for him?March 31, 2015 2:57 am at 2:57 am #1070662
Hakatan- “While the classes and campuses are indeed separate, the events, etc. are all mixed. So, practically speaking, other than the actual classes, “Yeshiva”/Stern is essentially a co-ed experience.”
Where do you get your information from. I wish you would just pause and try to look at it from a different perspective. No one will deny you that zionism is a major tenet of MO, no one will deny you that their value of Torah is different than yours. I know all you are trying to do is stand up for the torah, and stand up for what is right, but unfortunatly that isnt the way it works in this world. If someone in my community read what you wrote today they would be disgusted and turned off from any yeshvish way of life. Anything right wing to them. Is that right of them? Yes and no. Yes because that compeltly offeneds their entire way of life and No because they say things about “right wingers” that are completly offensive toom, which is disgusting. Were all at fault here.
But someone has to stop the chain. And I would HOPE it would be someone whose whole focus is Torah, like you come off as, because thats what the Torah wants! Ahava between brothers and sisters in Judaism.
YU and Stern in your mind is very naive. I’ve been there. I have friends there who never go to coed events. Yes there are lots of people who are not relgious, in fact there are lots of flaws in the system. But look at what your stirring because of your ignorant comments! I have faith in your beliefs. You seem to be a very passionate and smart individual. Please please use it for drawing the “other” in instead of alientating them because of their “avodah zara”.March 31, 2015 6:22 am at 6:22 am #1070663
In case this hasn’t been made obvious yet, I certainly have full respect for anyone who is serving Hashem the way he or she has been taught to do. But what’s against the Torah can not be condoned as a “legitimate derech”, etc.
I’m sorry if some people don’t like that and I wouldn’t want any of your friends to be “turned off” by it either. But this is, I think, the Yeshiva World, not Mizrachi World, and therefore the positions espoused therein are geared to and should conform to the gedolim of the Yeshiva world and not the leaders of MO/Mizrachi. If individual MO Jews have any questions, they can certainly ask their LMOR for answers.
As I mentioned, this has been discussed before. Like here, for example:
In the piece mentioned there, Rav Schwab tries to draw MO, with much love and respect, into the fold of Torah Judaism. He implores them to abandon their fossilized “modernity” and instead embrace the true modernity of the vibrant Torah world.
I sincerely hope that they do so.
To clarify your last paragraph about “YU and Stern in your mind is very naive”, I don’t at all believe the institutional policy to be a result of naivete but rather a normal function of their MO theology. Once again, the many less-religious people are not the concern other than hoping that they all grow in their religion to full Torah Jews (in spite of where they are). The concern is, rather, the institutional policies of the MO faith.March 31, 2015 6:51 am at 6:51 am #1070664
Some of the sources are here:
Others are in various places in Rav Shach’s Michtavim uMaamarim which you can easily find.
For instance, Rav Shach, when writing about Rabbi Soloveichik, wrote that Rabbi Soloveichik “forgot things that talmidei bais rabban know” and wrote things that are heretical and are forbidden to be heard and certainly forbidden to be written down” and to the point that such a person says “divrei kefirah that are simply shocking to see”.
The reason, Rav Shach, writes, that he is mentioning them to show how far the influence of foreign ideologies affects a person…
This was the point of this discussion, until you insisted on trying to justify the unjustifiable.March 31, 2015 6:52 am at 6:52 am #1070665
But we don’t even need the sources to show how wrong this is. For example, even you admit that “There are certainly many mixed events. However, none of those are obligatory and nothing is mandated.”
It’s scary that you can’t even see how wrong this is, and that you write this as if it’s some sort of defense of MO.
As you surely know, if a person has a choice of two streets, and he knows that one of those has pritzus and he chooses to go that way EVEN IF he goes with the full intention of not looking AND DOES NOT LOOK then he is called a RASHA!
Yet you have no problem with a putatively “Orthodox” institution ignoring all of this and institutionalizing “many mixed events”?
Hashem yeracheim.March 31, 2015 7:04 am at 7:04 am #1070666
Most of the gedolim quotes were from when they were very much alive and when they were present in the situation in which they were deploring. And there are many more.
Regarding Rabbi Kook, he was influenced by outside influences according to the Gerrer Rebbe who said that Rabbi Kook, out of his love of the land, “says al tamei tahor viAl tahor tamei”. The Chazon Ish forbade learning his hashkafa sefarim. Rav Shach wrote about him as well.
At the same time, Rabbi Kook had tremendous power as the Chief Rabbi in Yerushalayim, and people had to respect him and glorify him in order to receive what they needed from him.
The Brisker Rav, who was certainly not a fan of Zionism, once needed something from Rabbi Kook that was pikuach nefesh, etc. He convened his B”D to request their permission – individually – for each honorific he used in his letter to Rabbi Kook with that request.
That’s the “respect” you’ve heard about.March 31, 2015 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1070667
Again, none of this is, CH”V, a condemnation of any person. This is simply a quoting of the gedolim’s position that MO/RZ is against the Torah, etc. That’s it. What you do with that is your choice.
And, as Rav Schwab wrote, he who loves does not hate. This is simply to defend the honor of the Torah and not at all, CH”V, about hatred and, again, nobody is judging anyone here.
The bottom line is that MO’s leader, as great in Torah as he was, admittedly broke from his mesorah and of the gedolim of his time, and the leader of RZ in E”Y also promoted positions that were strongly opposed by the gedolim of his time.
May we merit soon to see the day when all the “gilulim will be removed from the land” with the coming of Mashiach BB”A.March 31, 2015 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1070668
Hakatan- mixed events at yu with marrigable agreed singles is not the same situation of pritzus that you describeMarch 31, 2015 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1070669
Didn’t R’ Shach oppose Chabad very strongly? Didn’t the Gra oppose Chassiudus? When do we write off entire sects of Judaism because some Gedolim oppose them?March 31, 2015 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1070670
Simcha613, you make it sound like the yeshiva velt has embraced Chabad. I would say the yeshiva velt has a much bigger issue today with Chabad than with YU.March 31, 2015 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1070671JosephParticipant
DY: That’s because Chabad has a bigger influence and presence in yeshivish communities than YU, which is already long marginalized in the yeshiva velt unlike Chabad, not because they are more concerned about their hashkafa compared to MO. (This point is not necessary contradicting what you wrote.)March 31, 2015 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1070673
Not the same, in my observation. I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t daven in a Modern Orthodox shul if they needed a minyan (unless maybe the mechitzah was questionable). I can’t say the same about a Beis Chabad.March 31, 2015 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1070674Yosi7Member
Hakatan- Look inside Michtavim Umaamarim. Rav Shach although completely disagreeing with Rav Solivetchik still calls him “hagaon Harav…”. Also, regarding Rav Kook it is well known that the Chofetz Chaim walked out of the Agudah Convention when they started speaking against Rav Kook, and also, Rav Kook was the Mesader Kiddushin of Rav Elyashiv and rav elyashiv once yelled at a guy who was speaking against Rav Kook.March 31, 2015 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1070675Yosi7Member
Hakatan- “wrote that Rabbi Soloveichik “forgot things that talmidei bais rabban know”
Doesn’t the Gemorah say this about Dovid Hamelech? (Gemorah Brachos).March 31, 2015 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1070676
Mods, why is it that HaKatan is allowed to insult one of the biggest Rabbonim of the previous generation, a former member of the Moetzes, who was responsible for building one of the largest yeshivos in the world today? Yet any facts written about others are edited out?
About the CR mods I do shudder.
The same reason your other posts were deleted. Personal attacks are not allowed.March 31, 2015 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1070679apushatayidParticipant
this is so childish. my gadol is bigger than your gadol, so there.March 31, 2015 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1070680
I’ve attempted to call out what HaKatan is doing as wrong several times, with no response.
He refers to Modern Orthodoxy as TuMa, using his play on words to imply that MO is an impure belief. I reported that, and my post wasn’t approved, and no edit was made to his post. He’s been doing this for a long time now, and for some reason it’s always allowed. Why is it allowed? Why can he attack Modern Orthodoxy with impunity?
Mods, if you want to move this discussion to email, I’m more than happy to do so. You know how to contact me.March 31, 2015 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1070681
APY, not that it’s a debate worth having anyhow, but to be more accurate, it’s more like, “My gadol holds your gadol isn’t really a gadol”.March 31, 2015 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1070682
Hakatan: there is a very famous picture of Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik together at a Chinuch Atzmai dinner. I don’t know if I’m allowed to post the link, but someone who was at the event saw the way they interacted with each other and describes how, Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik respected each other. Again, they most definitely disagreed, but they had much respect for one another.
Also, again, I really think many of these quotes are taken out of context or misinterpreted.
And as to the mixed events: Who is denying that they are done on purpose? For those who believe that it is ok, the events are absolutely fine. I don’t think you understand the nature of these events if you believe it is “pritzus”. And again, if one’s personal belief is that it is not permitted, they would never be forced to attend.
There is not, and never has been, a “gay tolerance club” at YU. There used to be a tolerance club that disbanded several years ago, and it is my understanding that this club was not CH”V supporting arayos, but rather trying to help those who do suffer from such challenges (something along the lines of “hate the sin, not the sinner”). Either way, it does not exist any more after an event several years back had a lot of negative backlash, and to say it still exists or that it was in support of toeivah (which you didn’t say, just implied) is motzi sheim ra of a high degree.March 31, 2015 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1070683
DY: Actually, it’s “I claim my Gadol holds your Gadol and therefore you was an Oveid Avodah Zarah”.March 31, 2015 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1070684Jewish ThinkerParticipant
As you surely know, if a person has a choice of two streets, and he knows that one of those has pritzus and he chooses to go that way EVEN IF he goes with the full intention of not looking AND DOES NOT LOOK then he is called a RASHA!
Your comparison is flawed, in my opinion. Compare it to actually going to the party and not getting involved in it, not having a choice of going to the party.March 31, 2015 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1070685
mw13: There never was a “gay tolerance” club at YU. There was a “tolerance club” whose stated goals were related to being nicer to everyone you disagree with, not gays in particular. When the one guy who really pushed the club graduated the club disbanded.
HaKatan: Once again, nebulous statements don’t further a discussion. We can talk about what R’ Soloveitchik “forgot” and try to figure out Pshat, or you can just quote personal attacks and hide behind them. And if it’s about Zionism, then that’s an old Machlokes and there’s no real way to take it further.
And yes, I do not think there is anything inherently Assur about an event/speech/whatever where both men and (almost-always appropriately-dressed) women will both be in attendance. And if singles are meeting in a Kosher environment, all the better.
Joseph: That’s been my point since the day I got here. “MO” doesn’t really exist. It’s an excuse that people who want to say “I’m better than you” use towards people who do some things slightly differently.
If you ask any YU Rosh Yeshivah or respected “MO” Rav what the real ideological differences are between YU and Lakewood, the answer you will get is “nothing” (or attitude towards the Medinah, I guess). There are some practical differences in how Lechatchilah getting a job is or how much we gain from secular studies or whatever, but the underlying ideology is the same Torah.March 31, 2015 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1070686
The club he referred to was a small club started by a student in one of the grad schools (I forget which one). The school administration was opposed to it, but because they are an accredited university, they could not legally ban it, due to anti-discrimination and freedom-of-speech laws.
I would like to point out that unfortunately, many Yeshivas in the chareidi community (as well as communities themselves) have become molester-support clubs. (Mods, that was not a personal attack!)March 31, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1070687
HaKatan, given your stance on events where both genders are mixing, I’m curious what your take is on R’ Breuer zt”l’s opinion regarding weddings. R’ Breuer held that mixed seating was actually preferable. If one feels the need, however, to have separate seating, they should still try and have a mixed section for singles, as mitzvah goreres mitzvah, and it could lead to shidduchim.March 31, 2015 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1070688EretzHaKMemberMarch 31, 2015 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1070689
I would like to point out that unfortunately, many Yeshivas in the chareidi community (as well as communities themselves) have become molester-support clubs.
Newsflash: not limited to the chareidi community. Unfortunately.March 31, 2015 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1070690
EretzHaK: Yes, a number of students held a debate about it. I am not arguing with the Rabbonim who said it should not be held. But your claim that it “sought to legitimize homosexuality” should be explained.
The debate did not try to say that homosexual relationships are ok. It sought to bring light to issues that are occurring in the Jewish world. Like it or not, there are frum Jews who are gay. Many of them struggle with it, and are ashamed to admit it. This can lead to sever depression, and in some cases, even suicide. One of the organizers said they were trying to make people realize that if they are gay, it’s ok to ask for help and support. Without it, it’s extremely tough to live a frum life.
The fact is, homosexuality itself is not wrong. Acting on those urges is what’s wrong. A regular person has urges to sin all the time, in all different areas. As long as you don’t act on them, you’re ok. Imagine if you were walking with a friend near a non-kosher restaurant. Your friend said, “Ah, that smells good. I wish I could taste the food! Oh well, it’s not kosher!” Why should that be any different than someone who is gay, who is trying to resist their own urges? If they ask for support and are instead made to feel like horrible people just for having these thoughts, do you think they’re likely to keep fighting in this area? Never mind about keeping the rest of the Torah!
We do need to show more support towards frum homosexuals. We need to encourage them, and help them resist the urges they have, as well as help them come to terms with the idea of not marrying, and likely being alone for much of their lives. That’s a scary thought I don’t wish on anybody.March 31, 2015 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1070691
EretzHaK: False. It in no way sought to legitimize homosexuality. You can read the transcripts; they are readily available online. It was meant to be speeches by 4 people with same-sex attraction who talk about their struggles still being Frum. The impetus was to show people that someone can be only attracted to men and yet still live a completely Frum life. It in no way wanted to legitimize any type of homosexual activity whatsoever.March 31, 2015 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1070692
Actually, it’s “I claim my Gadol holds your Gadol and therefore you was an Oveid Avodah Zarah”.
Did he say that in this thread? I haven’t read all the posts.
If you ask any YU Rosh Yeshivah or respected “MO” Rav what the real ideological differences are between YU and Lakewood, the answer you will get is “nothing” (or attitude towards the Medinah, I guess).
But you won’t get that answer from many roshei yeshiva and rabbonim in the yeshiva world.March 31, 2015 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1070693
DY: Right. Hence my claim that there is a lot of misinformation going on about YU.
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