Reply To: Is Aliyah a wise choice in the nuclear age?

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#1073429
Patur Aval Assur
Participant

(Same disclaimer as my previous post.)

Joseph:

Let me start by noting that you did not address any of the points in my previous post. I will summarize them here so that you can easily address them:

1) Even if R’ Kasher was a complete fraud, do you have a response to his point about the Chofetz Chaim’s writings?

2) R’ Kasher may have been devious in his portrayal of the 1937 meeting but he did not forge/doctor any document, considering that he used an ellipsis. You, on the other hand, did, when you deleted the word “????” without any notation that you were leaving out a word.

(This point is largely semantical and is not of utmost importance to this discussion.)

3) There was a gathering of the great rabbis and the majority vote was in favor of the state. You claim that the lesser rabbis outvoted the greater rabbis. First of all, I am not sure how you are judging the greatness of each of the rabbis that was there. Second of all, a minority that has greater rabbis is still a minority. Beis Hillel outnumbered Beis Shammai but Beis Shammai was mechadedei t’fei. Third of all, R’ Moshe Shternbuch (Teshuvos V’hanhagos 2:140) describes the 1937 meeting as follows:

????? ???”? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???”? ?????? ????”? ????? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ????? ????”? ??”? ??????”? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ??????? ??”? ?? ????? ?? ?”? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???????

?????? ????? ????? ???????? ??. ?????? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???”?

??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? (???? ???”?) ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????”? ??”?

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20026&st=&pgnum=109

4) Even if I grant Weinman’s claims (though I haven’t seen any evidence yet – a simple question that would need to be answered is why there is no record of any of the signatories who were contacted by Weinman publicly stating that they were falsely signed on), there was still some document signed by many great rabbis which referred to the State as ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????. Additionally, the Yeshuos Malko wrote: ?????? ??? ?????? ??????.

5) What do R’ Henken’s halachic positions have to do with his reliability in reporting his grandfather’s position? (For the record, and I probably should have mentioned this in my original post, the ma’amar 1 ose 17-19 in Benei Banim which I quoted was not written by R’ Yehuda Herzl Henken, but by a different talmid of R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henken. See the asterisk: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20022&st=&pgnum=208

6) What are your specific problems with the teshuva about dancing? I’m not saying that I will be willing, or able, to address them but I just want to see if you actually read the teshuva you are attacking.

7) What are your specific problems with the teshuva about saying zatzal. Again, to see if you actually read the teshuva.

8) Do you only think it is not okay to slight the honor of the Satmar Rav, or do you also think that it is not okay to slight the honor of R’ Kook, R’ Soloveitchik, and others?

9) Did you read the haskamos? R’ Moshe writes that although he can’t give a haskama on the actual dinim without being meayein, ?”? ????? ????”? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????

The Tzitz Eliezer wrote:

?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????

???? ????? ????”? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????

and:

?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????????? ????? ????

????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???????

You can see the rest for yourself.

Regarding your quotes from R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henken, what he kept harping on was taking arms. This is consistent with the quote in Benei Banim which says that that is why he so opposed the founding of the State even though he b’etzem agreed with R’ Kook. See also, what R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henken wrote in http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=124 b’shem R’ Chaim Ozer that the oath against rebelling against the nations also applies to rebelling against the Nation of Israel. And see also what he wrote in the piece titled ?? ????? ?? ?? ???:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22080&st=&pgnum=232&hilite=