Is Aliyah a wise choice in the nuclear age?

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  • #615423

    nfgo3
    Member

    When Theodor Herzl founded modern Zionism founded in approximately 1882 in Vienna, weapons of mass destruction were 40 (poison gas) to 60 (atomic bombs) years away. Following the end of the Great War, the Zionist movement obtained commitments for the establishment of a State of Israel. This was part of a process by many other peoples (e.g., the Vietnamese, the Southern Slavs, the Armenians) to obtain recognized homelands for the protection of their peoples. Separate homelands seemed like a good idea in the early 20th Century.

    With the proliferation of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction, a small nation could be wiped out in a matter of minutes. Given this ugly state of affairs, does the idea of Zionism before Moshiach make any sense whatsoever? Is it time for Jews to “hide” among the gentiles in the US and other (if any) Jew-friendly nations, until Moshiach restores us to Eretz Yisrael?

    There is a lot of attention being paid to the negotiations between Iran on the one hand, and, on the other, the US, Russia, China, UK, France and (believe it or not) Germany over Iran’s development and future access to nukes, as Iran has repeatedly called for or promised the destruction of Israel. The current Israeli Prime Minister wants a “stronger” agreement than the one that is close to acceptance. But no agreement can be air-tight and 100% fool-proof, and so, sooner or later, some Jew-hater, whether it’s Iran or anybody else, will have access to weapons that could wipe out the State of Israel. Given this sorry set of circumstances, does Zionism and Aliyah offer any hope of protecting the Jewish people, or is the only realistic protection a return to Torah and Mitzvahs until the time of Moshiach?

    #1073324

    Chaimbn
    Member

    Aliyah is the only way to save yourself before this country collapses in all directions. from the economy to the sonei yisroel moslem in the whie house etc…

    think about the future & see the yad Hashem as he prepares klal yisroel for mashiach. i.e. watch as even the medina shel chesed of the USA is breaking up with Israel.

    the latest message from HASHEM of todays situation with the economy is:

    to end the real only one that can protect & save us is Hashem himself

    #1073325

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    There is a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael, whether you like the idea of a Jewish government or not. If you do what’s right, have emunah that Hashem will protect you. Hinei lo yanum v’lo yishan, shomer Yisrael.

    #1073326

    takahmamash
    Participant

    It’s not a choice, it’s a mitzvah. If you’re makpid on chumrot in other parts of your life, there’s no reason not to be makpid on the mitzva of yishuv ha’aretz.

    #1073327

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    “Given this sorry set of circumstances, does Zionism and Aliyah offer any hope of protecting the Jewish people, or is the only realistic protection a return to Torah and Mitzvahs until the time of Moshiach?”

    Honestly, I don’t think so. I am happy that Jewish people are currently in control of (parts of) Eretz Yisrael, but I would not be comfortable living there under the current circumstances. I just can’t rely on open miracles to ensure that I would be safe living there. If you think you can, good for you and good luck to you. Now is not my time and nobody can convince me otherwise.

    Perks of living scattered all over the world: it’s much harder to C”V harm us all in one go. (Don’t tell me the story of how Hitler yemach shemo had a globe in his office which marked the locations of every Jew he could find, right down to one guy in Albania. It would still be hard.) If every single Jew in the world makes aliyah to Israel, we’d all be sitting ducks for our enemies to nuke in one easy place! Have you ever thought about that? There’s a reason why Yaakov Avinu separated his family into two camps when he was about to meet Eisav. Why not emulate the ways of our G-d-fearing forefather instead of falling for the agendas of a secular government?

    I think we are much better off preserving our lifestyle of Torah and mitzvos wherever we are than coming to a state that’s about as Jewish as Billy Joel’s or Barbara Streisand’s music, where they attempt to strip you of your religious values little by little.

    Oh, and by the way, the economy in Israel STINKS! Just look at the exchange rate, people. If the economy in Israel were better, then we’d be getting four dollars for every shekel, not the other way around.

    #1073328

    Forget about nukes. Even without considering nukes it is more dangerous for a Jew to live in Israel than for him to live in America or Australia or even Europe or South America. There’s more anti-Jewish terrorism in Israel than in any of those other places.

    #1073329

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @nolongersingle – Excellent point! Also, Israel is the only country that gets bashed by the world for taking counter-terrorism measures. In Australia and Europe, counter-terrorism has been praised.

    #1073330

    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    Israel is supposed to be a country where the ruling power isn’t anti-semitic. For that reason alone Israel is a cool country.

    OP, you have raised many points. Living in the State of Israel IS your choice. The people who live there know the physical risks, and it is their choice to live in them – or they ignore them.

    #1073331

    Joseph
    Participant

    DikDukDuck: Israel is a country where the ruling power isn anti-semitic (anti-religious is anti-Judaism.) America is a country where the ruling power isn’t anti-semitic.

    #1073332

    Joseph
    Participant

    “isn” in the first sentence of my most recent post above should read “is”.

    #1073333

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Zionism is a complete and utter failure at what it tried to (supposedly) accomplish which was to create a safe haven for Jews a

    Simple look at statistics well show u that the biggest number of

    Jews have been killed In Israel over the past 60 years so besides

    For exacerbating anti semitism what has the state of

    Israel accomplished?

    #1073334

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    One should ask his Rav about aliya. So far none in this thread have acted like the meraglim, Baruch Hashem, I hope it continues that way.

    #1073335

    Joseph
    Participant

    Jewish Thinker: What kind of comment would constitute “acting like the meraglim”? This is a discussion of the physical safety in EY. If there are issues with the safety in EY, may they not be discussed openly and even comparatively to other locals?

    #1073336

    Chaimbn
    Member

    When a person puts his full faith and trust in Hashem he is not worried or nervous about his safety-yes of course every person needs to do his hishtadlus & cannot depend on miracles-cause he knows Hashem would never let anyone harm him C”V unless it was for the good

    #1073337

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    takahmamash: Very true and we did practice what we preach and made Aliya.

    #1073338

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @kj chusid, great point! May I ask where I could find these statistics? I feel if I have the information at the ready, I can better shut down the claims of fear-mongers.

    [I meet a lot of them and I’m sick of being told I’m naive for not following “the news” (probably aka World Net Daily and a certain allegedly frum site where terms like “Gog Bush” and the “upcoming civil war in America” are popular, and YMRM of Verplank is considered “haredi”) which allegedly reports all sorts of horrible things happening to Jews in America. If I don’t see this happening where I live, it must be because I’m shutting my eyes to it on purpose.

    I wish they’d understand that making aliyah is not the solution to my problems (I can’t speak for everyone else’s problems), which definitely do not include any of the bizarre claims being made to my face by people living “chutz” the “aretz” of fifty diverse states that I live in.]

    #1073339

    kj chusid
    Participant

    How many people were killed In the 1948 war 1956 war 1967 & 1973 wars first and second intifadas and in other terror attacks in Israel put those numbers together and you’ll be easily able to disprove the idea that Israel is a “safe haven” for jews

    #1073340

    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    @joseph

    The Nazis didn’t differentiate between secular and religious. Anti-Semites don’t differentiate between secular and religious. Israel is supposed to be a country which isn’t anti-Semitic – as you said the gov is quite anti-religious, but anti-religious is not anti-Semitic. The gov likes their secular Jews very much.

    #1073341

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @kj chusid – Great, thanks. Any advice for how to respond when they say, “Sure, sure, that’s happened before in Israel, but how do you know that it won’t happen soon in America?”

    #1073342

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    There is no safe haven.

    #1073343

    kj chusid
    Participant

    &bookworm the

    Gemara says that if we try to rebel against the nations we will be hunted down like sheep in addition the satmar rebbe said in 1947 that they will call there day of independence yom hastzmut and what’s the shoiresh of hastzmut atzmis bones he said the from this medineh will only result in bones and in today’s times we can see how true it is so can I guarantee that there won’t be a attack against Jews in America no however when you rebel against Hashem u can be assured that it won’t end well as the history of Israel proves

    #1073344

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    Interesting! Thanks for sharing those points.

    #1073345

    kj chusid
    Participant

    My pleasure

    #1073346

    mw13
    Participant

    takahmamash:

    “It’s not a choice, it’s a mitzvah. If you’re makpid on chumrot in other parts of your life, there’s no reason not to be makpid on the mitzva of yishuv ha’aretz.”

    Its actually a rather large machlokes. (And as kj chusid wil probably be happy to explain, there are actually shittos that prohibit a Jew from living in EY today.)

    Every churah needs a shikel ha’daas, a judgment of the gains and losses. For example, although there are formidable shittos that hold that one must use matzos baked on erev Pesach for the seder, many are not makpid to do so. Why? A) because they are exorbitantly expensive and B) because oftentimes, they end up being chometz gammur. A similar cheshbon can be made here; although there are indeed shittos that hold one must live in EY today, to do so one must often A) risk loving their livelihood and B) having their kids molded by a culture whose ideals they do not agree with.

    kj chusdi:

    “Zionism is a complete and utter failure at what it tried to (supposedly) accomplish which was to create a safe haven for Jews a

    Simple look at statistics well show u that the biggest number of

    Jews have been killed In Israel over the past 60 years so besides

    For exacerbating anti semitism what has the state of

    Israel accomplished?”

    A do agree that the Zionist experiment has completely backfired; instead a curing global Antisemitism and creating a safe haven for the Jews, Israel today is the leading cause of global Antisemitism and the leading locale of Jews being killed simply because they are Jews.

    That said, how lucky is one who is able to live in our land, the land of our forefathers. Love the land, hate the state.

    #1073347

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Regarding your question if there is a mitzvah nowadays to live in Eretz Yisroel, as the Ramban says, or if there is no mitzvah nowadays, as Rabbeinu Chaim says, quoted in Tosafos on Kesubos 110b: Most poskim hold it is a mitzvah. But it is obvious that this is not an obligatory mitzvah in our time, for if so, it would result in a prohibition to live in Chutz Laaretz because doing so would be violating a positive commandment, like wearing a four-cornered garment without tzitzis, which is forbidden because it transgresses the positive commandment of tzitzis. But we only find a prohibition regarding one who lives in Eretz Yisroel, who is forbidden to leave with the intention of dwelling permanently in Chutz Laaretz – see Rambam Hilchos Melachim 5:9. And this prohibition is certainly not a negative commandment. Had it applied to the Jews of Chutz Laaretz, the Rambam would have written, ‘It is forbidden to live in Chutz Laaretz unless there is a strong famine in Eretz Yisroel.’ So we see that it is a Rabbinic prohibition, only for those who dwell in Eretz Yisroel. But as far as the Biblical positive commandment, it is not obligatory, only that if one lives there he fulfills the mitzvah. And in my Chiddushim I have written at great length about the words of Rabbeinu Chaim in Tosafos in Kesubos. Now, since it is not an obligatory mitzvah, you must definitely take into consideration the concern of Rabbeinu Chaim in Tosafos as to whether you will be able to keep the special mitzvos of Eretz Yisroel.” (Igros Moshe, Even Hoezer 1:102)

    #1073348

    MDG
    Participant

    “How many people were killed In the 1948 war 1956 war 1967 & 1973 wars first and second intifadas and in other terror attacks in Israel put those numbers together and you’ll be easily able to disprove the idea that Israel is a “safe haven” for jews”

    <sarcasm> If you count how many Chassidim have been killed (HY”D) in the past 250 years, maybe one can say that being Chassidish is dangerous. </sarcasm>

    #1073349

    kj chusid
    Participant

    If u look at how

    Many Jews were killed in the past 250 years maybe u would determine that being Jewish is dangerous . What’s ur point supposed to be?

    #1073350

    nfgo3
    Member

    Re kj chusid’s question about someone’s (maybe my) point: Yes, it is dangerous being a Jew. My point is to raise the question of what we do about it. The answer is neither easy nor obvious, but herding ourselves into a small space in the nuclear age seems to be a dangerous strategy. Should we trust in Hashem, or is Hashem trusting in us to use our chochom (which comes from Hashem)?

    #1073351

    Avi K
    Participant

    To say that the government is anti-religious is a blood libel! the government is mainly secular but Jewish holidays are legal holidays, Shabbat is a legal day of rest, etc., etc. Except for a daat yachid (which Rav Teichtal says in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” is the sin of the spies) agreed that it is a mitzva. Of course, if someone does not have transferable job skils, is middle-aged, etc. he may be temporarily exempt but one has to examine his situation periodically to see if he is still exempt.

    #1073352

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Avi K: Not every canard is a blood libel. Just ask Sarah Palin. Or not.

    #1073353

    Joseph
    Participant

    Stating that the Israeli government is anti-religious is a factualism.

    #1073354

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Hershel Shachter shlita quotes HaGaon R’ Soloveitchik zt”l on the Haggadah as follows:

    Why do we speak about Arami oved avi? We are supposed to be speaking about Pharaoh and Egypt! What does Lavan have to do with it? R’ Soloveitchik said, it’s to tell us about hatred of Jews. The Egyptians made their excuses as to why they wanted to enslave us, but they were just excuses. We know Esav sonei Yaakov. The reasons are just excuses to justify the hatred, but they are not the cause of the hatred. The cause is the fact that Judaism exists, so they hate us.

    According to this, to say that Israel causes global anti-semitism is 100% wrong. It may be the excuse quoted by many, but that’s all it is – an excuse. Global anti-semitism is caused by the fact that we are Jews, and they are not.

    #1073355

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Y give them a reason?

    #1073356

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    You missed the point. We don’t have to GIVE them a reason. They’ll find a reason no matter what. There’s plenty of anti-Satmar sentiment out there also – look at Ramapo and Bloomingburg. Why are Satmar giving them a reason???

    #1073357

    DaMoshe, there are levels. You wouldn’t walk over to someone and spit in his face and say “well, he hates me anyway”.

    #1073358

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY: True. But the point still holds true with Israel. When it was founded, most of the world supported it. It did not cause any new hatred. The Arabs already hated us beforehand. The hatred coming now is pure anti-semitism, not anti-Zionism. Not like what’s happening in Ramapo and Bloominburg. In those places, the Satmar people are claiming it’s anti-semitism, when it’s really anti-Satmar and preservation of the lifestyles of the original residents.

    #1073359

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Both arguments have merits. I agree with Damoshe; the Arabs are not looking to destroy Israel, they’re looking to destroy Jews. Ask them, they’ll happily tell you. On the other hand, DY has a point about not provoking people who are happy to hate you. Although, if your enemy is doing the best it possibly could to destroy you, I don’t see why it hurts to spit on him. He cannot be antagonized any more than he already is!

    #1073360

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Exactly I wouldn’t walk into the town of Monroe punching people because hey they hate anyways

    #1073361

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The Meshech Chochmo in Parshas Bo gives a fascinating prophecy-like warning. He speaks about how through history, when Klal Yisroel get too familiar in their homes, that’s when HKB”H deals another blow. He warns that when people feel Berlin is Yerushalayim, the HKBH will put it into the Germans minds to show them their place.

    How right he was.

    And if he was here, R’ Meir Simcha zt”l would warn you that if people think Yerushalayim is Yerushalayim…

    #1073362

    There are still levels. Sure they hated us, but Zionism, and then the Medina, further provoked them. We still do things to provoke them, and see a clear reaction. One example which comes to mind is going to Har Habayis (putting aside tumah issues).

    #1073363

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY, most of the world approved of Israel when it was founded. It’s only in the past few years that it’s been condemned over and over by such a large amount of nations.

    #1073364

    The ones who count, the surrounding countries, certainly did not approve. Five countries immediately attacked, at a cost of about 6400 Jewish lives.

    As to the rest of the world, ????? ???, ????? ?? ?????.

    #1073365

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    yekke2: the meshech chochmo is in parshat bechukoisa.

    kjchusid: your last comment was a real howler! last time I looked, people within kiryas joel do that (hitting each other) pretty well between themselves!

    DaasYochid: the medinah was not even born when the Holocaust happened. And ,if you argue that it was Zionism that cuased the Holocaust, you are espousing the satmarer shittah. Of course, it besg the question why the ones who suffered most in the Holocaust (Polish,Lithuanian and Hungarian jews) were the most rabid anti-zionist.

    #1073366

    ROB, I didn’t mention the Holocaust, but certainly, pre medinah Zionism provoked increased hatred (Chevron massacre). I’m not a baki on the Shittah Hakedosheh; did Zionism cause the Holocaust on a practical level, or on a ruchniyusdik level? Perhaps both?

    Let’s face it, Esav Sonei es Yaakov without our help, but we should not be provoking that sinah.

    #1073367

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY: But yet again, the ones who say that regarding Zionism, are the ones provoking the most sinah. Like I said, look at Ramapo, Bloomingburg, and other areas.

    #1073368

    Why is this about Satmar and your dislike for them?

    #1073369

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    DY, they aren’t getting upset they are getting riled up. The first is what someone else does to you, the latter is what you do yourself. They never cared all that much about Har Habayis. When Jews started coming they turned it into their third holiest site. Now they can enjoy playing basketball on their “third holiest site.”

    The only mistake with regard to the Har Habayis was to hand it to them after the six day war. Like the Medrash says, whoever tried making peace with them landed up with embarrassment. This has been proven over and over. We are forced to pretend we have hope for peace as long as the Western world thinks there is hope. We might have to go along with the proposals but we already know the outcome.

    #1073370

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Perhaps I’m mistaken, but the rise of antisemitism caused Zionism, not the other way around. Herzl had believed assimilation was the answer, but the virulent rise of European antisemitism caused him to change his mind and decide that separation was the answer.

    The Crusader massacres, Spanish persecution and expulsion, pogroms, the massacre at York ( need I go on? ) all took place long before Zionism

    #1073371

    One doesn’t preclude the other. Zionism may have been started to combat antisemitism, yet may have had the opposite effect

    #1073372

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    They wanted Zionism, they didn’t hate is for it. In the Ruchnius sense I don’t have a say in the matter, other than the holocaust was not all about Hungary.

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