Joseph:
I brought in R’ Kook and R’ Soloveitchik, not to divert the discussion from its topic, but to address a specific point that you made. You found it “funny” that someone would entertain the notion of not respecting the Satmar Rav. To which I asked you if you would find disrespecting R’ Kook or R’ Soloveitchik “funny” as well. Whatever reason you have for thinking that it’s okay to not respect them (e.g. they did terrible things, they were krum, they destroyed Torah, etc.), someone else might have a similar reason for not respecting the Satmar Rav (as I alluded to earlier). My point is not about whether it is actually correct to not respect the Satmar Rav; my point is that if you find it acceptable to not respect the other side’s gadol, you shouldn’t find it funny if they don’t respect your gadol. (Obviously, the two sides can argue that the other one wasn’t a gadol, etc. ad infinitum.)
The problem with quoting the like of “Rabbi X said…” is that you are anonymous and for all I know might be quoting the story tenth hand. Over ten repetitions a story can change drastically, and certainly lose the nuances that were contained therein. One need only look at how the same person tells a story slightly differently each time, to realize that changes can easily creep in. Thus, I have a healthy sense of cynicism whet it comes to such stories in general, and all the more so over here where it flies directly in the face of the letter written by the Chofetz Chaim’s son in law. Additionally, you didn’t provide that much context to the story. There was surely more to the story (if it ever happened) than the Chofetz Chaim just saying “Kook Shmook”. There was probably an entire conversation which we know nothing of. It is hard to assign much value to a two-word statement the Chofetz Chaim said, without knowing these details, especially – as I have already pointed out – that it is against the Chofetz Chaim’s son in law’s letter which is documented in full. Furthermore, you quote two separate incidents in which the Chofetz Chaim said “Kook shmook”. If I had to guess, I would say that this is an example of a legend being told over several times to the point where different versions emerge. First of all, in the second story, you said that R’ Berel used to tell it over. But did R’ Berel witness it? So where did he get it from? Second of all, R’ Kook never said that Hebrew University is a fulfillment of “Ki Mitzion”. His speech is printed in several seforim and was even translated into English by Dr. Shnayer Leiman in Tradion 29:1. What R’ Kook actually said was:
????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ???????? ???
As you can see, it was a prayer, not a statement of fulfillment, and it was not even said about the university. So either the story with the Chofetz Chaim never happened, or it happened and was based on distortions of R’ Kooks words, which would then call into question many of the statements against R’ Kook.
Speaking of context, the “rasha gamur” quote from R’ Elchanan is also out of context. He didn’t simply say “R’ Kook is a rasha gamur” as one would think based on your post. What he wrote was:
?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???
Incidentally, this would render all those rabbis who praised R’ Kook reshaim.
Getting back to the kol korei, I am not asking you to do my research; I am asking you to do your research. You claim that R’ Kasher’s kol korei was disproved by Zvi Weinman. Now you either read what Weinman wrote or you didn’t. If you did read it then please tell us exactly how he disproved it – for instance if he claims to have found different kol koreis, tell us what they said, who signed them, and what the evidence is that they were more authentic than R’ Kasher’s. If he called the signatories and asked them if they signed R’ Kasher’s version, we have my follow up question which I think, based on your response, you misunderstood. You say that it is not their responsibility to keep abreast of everything signed in their name, and the kol korei was only published in a Mizrachi publication. Your point seems to be that they didn’t know that they were signed on to R’ Kasher’s version. But if Zvi Weinman told them about this kol korei and asked them if they signed it, they certainly knew about it. So why, out of some 200 signatories, did we not hear anything from them about how they were misrepresented in the most heinous way as if to make it seem that the State of Israel is the ?????? ??????, when in fact such a position is assur gamur and against all the gedolim? (Again, if there was a public retraction, feel free to document it.)
Now you said:
None of the rabbonim who supported a State where anywhere near the stature of the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, Rav Chaim Ozer, the Brisker Rav or Rav Ahron Kotler. Nor were any of the zionist rabbis who signed the KK or referred to a ?????? ?????? anywhere near that stature; and stature matters.
First of all, you are combining three different positions into one. Someone can support the State without holding that it’s ?????? ??????, and someone can hold that it’s not assur to have a state, without supporting the formation of a state. Either which way, as I already noted, the Yeshuos Malko wrote that the ???? is ?????? ??????. Now if you want to compare rabbis that is fine. But you have to have a valid methodology for doing so. That means that someone who was intimately familiar with both rabbis (or if they were prolific authors then someone who is intimately familiar with their works) judged between them. So for example, you would have to explain who was intimately familiar with both R’ Kook and R’ Elchanan and said that R’ Elchanan was greater, or who was intimately familiar with both the Chazon Ish and the Yeshuos Malko and said that the Chazon Ish was greater, or who was intimately familiar with both R’ Aharon Kotler and R’ Soloveitchik and said that R’ Aharon was greater.
Once we’re at it I might as well add that R’ did not agree with R’ Elchanan, the Brisker Rav, and the Satmar Rav. See Mesoras Moshe page ????:
?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???”? ????????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??’ ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?”? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???”? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??
??? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????????? ?”? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?”? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????”? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??
And R’ Ovadia Yosef had his own view on the State; see for example Yabia Omer Orach Chaim 6:41.
Regarding your quote from Simcha Raz, I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to show from it.
In sum, I think we can see that there were differing opinions among the great rabbis. Some were radically different, while others were only different in regards to a few nuances.