Reply To: Is Aliyah a wise choice in the nuclear age?

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#1073449
Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Joseph:

It is very good that you gave us some more context. Because the context raises several strong questions on the story.

1) Once again it is based on a distortion of R’ Kooks words. He did not say that they are holy because they are building up the land. Here is what he wrote (Shemoneh Ketzavim 1:716):

???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ?”? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ??”? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ????

2) This was written at the latest, in 1914 (see the beginning of the sefer). R’ Yerucham Gorelik wasn’t born until 1911. He would have been three years old in 1914. Memories of a three-year-old are not quite reliable.

3) It is extremely unlikely that the Chofetz Chaim read the newspaper. See what he writes in Zachor L’miriam perek 23: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14237&st=&pgnum=47

As for the second story, we still don’t know where R’ Berel got it from.

So to summarize the claim that the Chofetz chaim said “Kook shmook”:

The claim has been made that the Chofetz Chaim said this in objection to two separate incidents. We have seen that both of these were distortions of R’ Kooks actual words. We have no original source for the second story and the source of the first story was probably three years old at the time. (This might not be such a raya because although it was written by 1914, it might not have been published until later.) The claim is made that the Chofetz Chaim read about it a newspaper, yet the Chofetz Chaim himself writes strongly against reading newspapers. Additionally, Avi K reports that he asked a student of the source and the student denied it (though admittedly this is not the strongest question). Furthermore, the alleged stories are directly at odds with the letter from the Chofetz Chaim’s son-in-law. Once we’re quoting stories about the Chofetz Chaim and R’ Kook, I can quote the story brought in Mevaser Tov p. 862:

???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? (“??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????”) ????”? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? (????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????) ??? ??? ???? ????????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????

What is your source for the story with the Imrei Emes? It seems rather doubtful, especially in light of the article R’ Moshe Tzuriel wrote on this topic which you can find by googling ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??????.

Regarding R’ Elchanan, there is indeed a substantial difference between “R’ Kook is a rasha gamur” and “Based on Rabbeinu Yona, if we see that someone praises reshaim, we know that he is a rasha gamur in a manner which it is forbidden to associate with him”. Additionally, as I pointed out, based on this, anyone who praised R’ Kook is a rasha gamur. At the top of the list we can put R’ Chaim Ozer.

Regarding the kol korei, no, I do not think that they have to have a press conference every time they are misquoted. However, if they knew that there was widespread belief in the Religious Zionist camp that all these great rabbis supported something that was antithetical to Judaism, you can be sure they would correct the falsehood. President Obama would certainly issue a denial in a situation such as this. Furthermore, if Weinman’s whole claim is that they denied it in personal conversations, why should we accept it? Again, if you have seen what Weinman actually wrote then feel free to share it with us; if you haven’t then you shouldn’t be quoting it to prove something.