Reply To: Can women talk about Gemara?

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Patur Aval Assur
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Joseph:

1) I am not talking about a failure to quote five pages. I am talking about using an ellipsis to cut out half of a sentence which provides context to what R’ Soloveitchik was saying. I only read the first couple of paragraphs of your post – I stopped reading once I saw how long it was and that in just the first couple of paragraphs there were misquotes. Look at the quote that you obviously felt was the most important one (seeing as you bolded it) and then look back at the original and see the part of the sentence that you left out.

My point in mentioning R’ Soloveitchik’s other writings and his talmidim’s views was that they are clues to keep in mind when reading this speech. You took one source as if it was the first and last word on R’ Soloveitchik’s worldview. Any of his talmidim (actually there may be one or two who will deny this) can tell you that R’ Soloveitchik’s worldview was very complicated, probably more so than any other rabbinic leader. Now, R’ Soloveitchik may have contradicted himself at times. If there is indeed a contradiction, I would like to know by what means you determined that this is the authoritative source. On the other hand, it is eminently possible that there is no contradiction, and the quote has to be taken in context.

2) I suspect that you might have misunderstood the speech. All he said was that the “benei torah” (he didn’t use that term either) believe in isolating themselves from the world and the secular culture while YU believes in engaging with the world and culture. He compared it to R’ Shimon Bar Yochai in the cave and out of the cave. I’m not sure what would be insulting about that, especially since you cited R’ Soloveitchik as agreeing that one should avoid the secular culture as much as possible. Moreover, if it was insulting then by extension the Gemara must have been insulting to R’ Shimon Bar Yochai. The connotation (and perhaps even the denotation) of “cavemen” is a primitive, backwards, almost subhuman culture. This is not at all what R’ Lamm said; in fact in that very speech he advocated for the “cave experience” albeit to a lesser extent than in “benei torah” circles. I honestly don’t see how someone can read the speech and interpret it in an insulting manner, unless the reader feels that disagreement is insulting. Now, I will admit that I was not present when the speech was given, and as such it is possible that R’ Lamm used tone/hand gestures/facial expressions which put an entirely different meaning into his words, or it is possible that the published version is inaccurate; however, I doubt that you were there either. If you want to make such an argument the burden of proof is certainly on you.

3) I am not referring to R’ Elchanan nor to R’ Shteinman. I did specifically not mention any names but if you press me for details I will oblige. (Obviously, the moderators can feel free to edit this part if they deem it inappropriate.) I am referring to R’ Shalom Cohen’s remarks about ????? ?????? and Amalek, and the subsequent apology/clarification. And perhaps I am also referring to R’ Nissan Kaplan’s remarks and subsequent retraction/clarification. Note: I am not castigating either of them for what they said or what they clarified; I am simply wondering if you would say the same thing that you said about R’ Lamm’s comments.

4) The quote from R’ Wolbe is far from straightforward. If he was discussing a situation where the girl learned more Torah and knows more Torah than the boy and he says she still does not come up to his ankles, then you will have to clarify how that makes any sense. If he was discussing a situation where the girl learned less Torah and knows less Torah then the boy then the statement is meaningless. If he was saying that the girl might know Hilchos Shabbos better than the boy but the boy knows Bava Kamma better than the girl since girls learn Hilchos Shabbos while boys learn Bava Kamma, then it’s very pashut and R’ Wolbe isn’t adding anything and it has no relevance to this thread. If he was saying that it’s impossible for a girl to learn more Torah and know more Torah than a yeshiva guy, then again you would have to explain how it makes sense, particularly considering the Sefer Hachinuch (152) who says:

????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????

And the Minchas Chinuch (78) who says:

?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??’ ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ?????? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???’ ?? ????’ ??”?

which clearly indicate that it is possible for a woman to exceed a man in Torah knowledge.