Can women talk about Gemara?

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  • #614073

    goofus
    Participant

    Most reliable poskin hold that women and girls should not learn gemara, but what if they were just having a discussion about a sugya. Would that constitute “learning?”

    Similarly, if two male chavrusas or shiur-mates (classmates)are casually discussing a piece of gemara, is thay considered learning? Would s’char be earned?

    #1077321

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Your two questions are not necessarily related. If a yid discusses a sugya, or even thinks casually about a sugya, he is mekayem mitzvas talmud torah. (Machlokes if you need to make birchas hatorah on hirhur, but you are definitely mekayem limud hatorah).

    There is no issur for women to be mekayem talmud torah. They are not allowed to learn gemara. So I don’t know what constitutes that.

    #1077322

    lamud vov tzadik
    Participant

    Imagine me (because I’m a lady) coming home saying I just learnt the maharshah. That actually would be quite amazing. It would be sort of fun.

    #1077323

    goofus
    Participant

    I mean, the two questions are obviously related. But I was really just looking for thoughts, so thank you.

    Also, you do not know what constitutes learning gemara?

    #1077324

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    They can talk about it, but only in third person.

    Example:

    Sarah: so, what do you think about the pshat I heard tosfos has in tzaras niddah?

    Rivkah: well, someone told me they don’t understand how it would change the limud of hukshu kol harayos just because it isn’t “domeh to an achos ishah”.

    Sarah: I heard that someone needs to think about it, but I’m sure they’ll get back to me to get back to you.

    #1077325

    mklipman
    Member

    Is it better for women to learn gemara or speak loshon hara?

    #1077326

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I think I know what constitutes learning gemara. I don’t know what Chazal didn’t want women to learn, whether it was gemara as a limmud, or the topics of gemara as well. (Discussion about a sugya would not be learning through a shtikel gemara!)

    And I think I explained why the two questions are not necessarily related – what constitutes as talmud torah does not necessarily constitute to the kind of learning that women are not allowed to do.

    #1077327

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Most reliable poskin hold that women and girls should not learn gemara”

    But there are also reliable poskim who hold otherwise. Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l said it was a chiyuv to teach women gemara. My wife has completed three tractates.

    #1077328

    vayoel moshe
    Member

    They may speak about it but not actively learn

    #1077329

    goofus
    Participant

    We are discussing real charedi poskim.

    #1077330

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Some sources which I’ve quoted previously:

    Piskei Riaz SotahPerek 1 Halacha 2:

    ??”? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??’ ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????’ ?

    Piskei Riaz SotahPerek 1 Halacha 2:

    ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??

    Maharil Teshuvos Chadashos siman 45:

    ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????”? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????’ ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????

    Perisha Y.D. 246:

    ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????

    #1077331

    Toi
    Participant

    why doesnt someone take him out of the stupid pit?

    #1077332

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Toi:

    I was actually thinking of bringing that up, so now that you did, allow me to disagree with you. I don’t think the person’s response has to do with the person’s gender; it has to do with whether the person has experience learning gemara. Those who have experience have already been programmed to ask not those types of questions. Those who don’t have experience haven’t been programmed. In fact if you would teach that gemara to fifth grade boys (or in whichever grade they start learning gemara) I would be surprised if nobody asked that question. Actually, I would think that they are not thinking if they didn’t ask that question.

    (For those who are wondering what in the world this is about, see:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-better-a-bad-chavrusa-or-no-chavrusa#post-477700 )

    #1077333

    Randomex
    Member

    If they had never learned any Gemara, how could they

    possibly have a discussion about any sugya?

    So, is your question whether one may teach girls

    the topics of the Gemara?

    popa_bar_abba:

    Funny! 🙂

    charliehall:

    Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l said it was a chiyuv to teach women gemara.”

    A chiyuv? Why?

    #1077335

    well i heard that men may not teach ladys gemara but they can learn it themselves. So i have learnt gemara but its too much for me i learnt a few sefers but no thank you

    #1077336

    voos epes
    Member

    You shouldn’t

    #1077337

    Little Froggie
    Participant
    #1077338

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Gemara in Sota which says to teach your daughter Torah is not taking about the Halacha making process. It is talking about knowing Torah. Rashi in Shabbos (31?) describes the Shabbos Drasha as being for the women and Amei Ha’aretz. There they learned Halacha with some rational along with Aggadah.

    We only find the issue mentioned as not teaching you’re daughter, which means that it is not an inherent Issur. This is why the Maharil quoted above says that she may learn on her own.

    #1077339

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I agree fully with PAA, that anyone not familiar with Gemara would ask such questions. However, the fact that we don’t is not because we learned our lesson not to. It is because (or is supposed to be) we understand that it is not a story; it is a scenario given to understand the guidelines, which will come to use whenever it might be.

    Another thing is that the issue where Rebbe Eliezer said Ella Bapellech was where there was an emotionally charged question of why something is fair. Someone that connects that way to a scenario can’t accept logic as an answer.

    #1077340

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Anyhow, to answer the question, it is Maasim Bechal Yom that men speak over parts of Sugyos at home when they think it would be of interest.

    #1077341

    #I learnt gemara in high school and sem, and now I am quite entertaining on dates. The guys get a kick out of me talking to them about the bok and smok..

    But, I think women should not learn Gemara.

    Unless they have nothing else to offer on dates. 🙂

    I just love the look on their faces when I mention them as a joke, and talk to them about the Eishes yefas toar….

    #1077342

    i do sometimes learn gemara but ive already talked to my rav and he said yes i am aloud to learn gemara just not with a men. So you do what your rav says to do and ill do what my rav says to do:)

    #1077343

    barlev
    Participant

    There was an article in ynet today about an 8 year old girl who made a siyum on shas

    Not sure if allowed to post a link

    #1077346

    voos epes
    Member

    I just think women should learn things relevant to them instead

    #1077347

    halachos are relevant to women:)

    #1077348

    simcha613
    Participant

    It’s not so clear from the S”A that women aren’t allowed to learn Torah Shebal Peh. Even though the S”A says that one who teaches his daughter Torah it’s as if he taught her “tiflus” (tiflus being something negative), the S”A also say that women receive sechar for learning it! Now if the S”A was saying that it is assur, the S”A wouldn’t have said they get a reward for doing it. The S”A just says it can’t be taught to them which I understand to mean that it is not allowed to be imposed on them, however if they learn it by choice, then they receive reward.

    One also has to factor in (based on the S”A and the Rama) that a woman does not have a chiyuv to learn Torah which has no practical application, and has a chiyuv to learn Torah that has practical application (halachah, mussar, Tanach [Gemara in Megilah says that the only nevu’os that were recorded were those who’s messages are meant for all generations, therefore Nach is practical], etc…). It’s a positive thing to learn the areas which have no practical application (the S”A says they receive reward), it’s better than wasting time, but it’s not a chiyuv.

    Based on this, I think there are 4 criteria that need to be met for women to learn Gemara:

    1) They have to want to do it.

    2) It has to be for lishmah reasons, not feminist reasons.

    3) They need a teacher to guide them in the right way to learn Gemara.

    4) It can’t come at the expense of learning those areas of Torah that are a chiyuv for them to learn, but it can only come at the expense of things that are reshus (learning secular subjects, going shopping, etc…).

    #1077349

    simcha 613 – i filled all those requirements when i use to learn it:) you just proved my point that thank you:)

    #1077350

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The S”A just says it can’t be taught to them which I understand to mean that it is not allowed to be imposed on them

    That is certainly not the classic way to understand it.

    #1077351

    daas yochid – thats true boys are NOT allowed to teach girls gemara but girls are allowed to teach it to themselves or to other girls or learn it with others girls

    #1077352

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- if the S”A truly meant that it is assur for girls to learn, why would the S”A say they get reward for doing it?

    #1077355

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I didn’t say it’s assur for girls to learn.

    #1077356

    ask your rav:)

    #1077357

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- I apologize for making that assumption, but then what is the “classical” way of understanding that S”A?

    #1077358

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That it’s assur for a man to teach them.

    #1077359

    voos epes
    Member

    @lookingforsem u can also use 😉 instead of 🙂

    #1077360

    simcha613
    Participant

    Dy- so it’s like a tzniyus issue? Men can’t teach women but women can? That doesn’t seem to be what the sa seems to say.

    #1077361

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I’m specifically referring to the subjects which are assur.

    #1077362

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- I’m not sure if I understand. Why is it only assur for men to teach women certain subjects? If there’s a problem with men teaching women, it should be a problem in all subjects. If there’s a problem with the subject matter, than it should be assur whoever teaches it. I don’t get the logic that it’s assur for men to teach women only certain subjects.

    #1077363

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Fine, so we can look up the sources and try to figure out why, just let’s not, on our own, read things into the Shulchan Aruch which he never said.

    #1077364

    Sam2
    Participant

    simcha: The simple reading of the SH”A is not that it’s Assur for men to teach women. Rather it’s that it’s Assur to force a girl to learn Gemara but she can choose to of her own volition.

    #1077365

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not assur? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? sounds pretty assur to me.

    #1077366

    We know a widow who did learn gemorah with her kids. in fact she knows the rashi and tosefos on those messechtos years later off-by-heart.

    Dass yochid, your telling us she did wrong?

    #1077367

    simcha613
    Participant

    Dy- but the sh”a is not saying what you were saying. .. that it is assur for any man to teach Gemara to any woman

    #1077368

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY is 100% correct. There are girl schools that don’t even teach Rashi, since that is T”SBP.

    #1077369

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: A man shouldn’t teach his daughter is analogous to the way that a man must teach his son. You have to teach your son Torah SB”P even if he doesn’t want to. You can’t do that with your daughter. If she wants to learn on her own, that’s perfectly fine.

    #1077370

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Why are you assuming that it means assur? If the Shulchan Aruch wanted to say that it’s assur he had the vocabulary to do so. E.g. ???? ???? to refer to the father or ???? ????? to refer to the woman herself. In fact, I don’t know of any other place in Shulchan Aruch where he uses the lashon of ??? ??”?.

    Lichora that is the pashtus of the Mishna:

    ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? (?????) ????? ?????

    Ben Azzai says you’re chayav and R’ Eliezer doesn’t respond that you’re not chayav or that it’s assur; he responds that it will have a bad result.

    #1077371

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You have to teach your son Torah SB”P even if he doesn’t want to. You can’t do that with your daughter. If she wants to learn on her own, that’s perfectly fine.

    You left out the case in the middle – she wants you to teach her.

    #1077372

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R’ Eliezer doesn’t respond that you’re not chayav or that it’s assur; he responds that it will have a bad result.

    And the Rambam and SA codify that by saying that Chazal commanded us not to teach her.

    #1077373

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- Saying that a woman is allowed to learn but a woman is not allowed to be taught is essentially saying she’s not allowed to learn. You can’t learn anything, especially Gemara, without a teacher. If she is allowed to learn when she wants to learn, then obviously she is allowed to be taught. Saying otherwise is illogical

    #1077374

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And the Rambam and SA codify that by saying that Chazal commanded us not to teach her.

    Correct, but the fact remains that Chazal never said it’s assur; they were against it because of a bad result. Which is tantamount to saying that if this result will not happen then it would be ok to teach girls Torah. So at most there could be a machlokes in metzius if in our current circumstances, teaching girls will cause tiflus and if it will cause more tiflus than not teaching them.

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