“OK I can see where you base your assumption non political as I have heavily emphasised the miracles and ruach hakodesh aspect to show that the Rebbe was not a regular person/ Rav (or tzadik as per non lubavitch perlance). But I was writing that assuming we shared a certain common knowledge or ground which I now see is lacking. So I’ll back up.”
Ok, I’m game let’s hear
“The Rebbe from his childhood on, was not typical…”
1) How do you know
2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna
3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.
“By the time he arrived in America in 1940, and the Frierdiker Rebbe sent chassidim to greet him at the port here was where he was holding, by the Frierdiker Rebbes description: “My son in law knows the entire shas with Tosfos, Rosh and Ran as well as all printed chassidishe seforim.”
This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe until (and including) our current day.
“The Rebbes tremendous knowledge of Torah is evident by his Farbrengens, where he would sit for hours on end, quoting from kol HaTorah Jul by heart with no notes, a fact that greatly impressed Rabbi JB Soloveitchik zatzal.”
Same as above
“The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon.”
Same as above
“Not just chassidim, people from all walks who met the Rebbe beforehand knew he was a very special young man and a tremendous gaon.”
Same as above
That all went without saying. Within lubavitch, it is impressive to be a tremendous gaon, but we’re not overly impressed if it’s something the average person could do, with the time and investment put into it. We have plenty of very learned people within lubavitch, Geonim (by today’s standard for sure) etc, not like the Rebbe of course, that’s highly unusual”
Still waiting for evidence of the highly unusual part
“We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”
I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.
“And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”
In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it
“How do you know if someone is not normal?”
I don’t know if we can drill it down precisely. Those darn shrinks keep changing the definition. The DSM-5 standard has drawn some heavy criticism. But if we avoid the grey areas and stay within commonly accepted usage of the concept we should be ok. Let’s see how it goes 🙂
“Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”
No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).
“If I would tell you “Anochi omed bein Hashem uveineichem” and “I will provide all your Gashmius needs if you listen to My commands,” you would think I’m a narcissistic lunatic or apikorus. However knowing who Moshe Rabbeinu was, no one of course describes him that way. In fact, he wasn’t even boasting about himself, as the Torah testifies that he was the humblest of all time..with Moshe, it was simply Shechina midaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe, and the I and Me were in fact referring to Hashem and not Moshe as an individual.”
Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.
“Get my point?”
Unfortunately, I do.
“Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”
No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.
CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.