Reply To: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Non political

“1) How do you know”

Because it has been recorded and documented by Jem who interviewed many people from all walks, who knew the Rebbe / his family in his youth.

“2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna?”

Judging from what I know of the Gra, I’d say the same.

“3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.”

Generally, when masses of yidden choose someone to be their Torah leader, they have solid basis. That’s precisely why Shabsai Tzvi was so unusual, because it’s very very rare to get such a large following of Rabbanim and lay people alike if you’re a fraud. Also, how long did this major mistake made with Shabsai Tzvi last for? I don’t mean how long did it take for the last remnant to die out? I mean how long was the majority or at least half of the frum world enamored of him and his following of frum yidden growing instead of shrinking? Was it a year or two? As soon as he broke halacha, the Rabbis unanimously condemned him and he lost his large following aside from a few die hards.

“This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe”

True although even then the Rebbe’s fluency (He gave a gemara shiur by heart as if he was reading from the text) wasnt as typical as it was by say the Alter Rebbe’s times.

” until (and including)our current day.”

Really? I never hear these kind of feats reported on ywn, and for sure not on a common basis.

Me: “The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon”

“Same as above”

True not disputing that.

Me: “We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”

You: “I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.”

Impressed and respect is relative. I gave examples of the respect we pay such Torah/ Avoda leaders. But I wouldn’t run to go on shlichus in some far flung place without questioning how they reached that decision if it’s right for me etc. Whereas with the Rebbe, we would. Also, these Torah leaders we speak to with respect and ask and highly regard their hashkafic advice, and accept their halachic psakim. However I wouldn’t lose my tongue or lose my whole composure or shake uncontrollably etc by such leaders. Whereas someone who can see right to my soul and read my thoughts, that is understandable.

Me: “And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”

You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”

I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. I don’t see this as a put down. I see this as putting lubavitch on even ground. Maybe this why we have the phenomenon of litvishe bochurim crashing our yeshivos because they think we don’t learn: maybe because they think they have tens of Torah leaders and we have one who isn’t even present physically. So we must be am haaratzim who just farbreng and drink vodka all day, go on mivtzoim and learn only our Rebbes sichos. Im saying this isn’t the case. We have many Torah leaders bh within lubavitch whose geonus can rival their litvishe or chassidishe peers. That should be normal for the Torah world. And yes we think of our Rebbe as above the norm.

“How do you know if someone is not normal?”
“Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

“No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

“Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.”

Really? I always learned the national revelation to be proof for other people who present their religions as rivals to ours but not to demonstrate who Moshe Rabbeinu was. In fact, they had to follow him through the yam suf which was life threatening in order to get the Torah. If they would only accept Moshe Rabbeinu to be speaking in the name of Hashem after matan Torah, it would have never happened.

“Get my point?”

“Unfortunately, I do.”

Based on your reaction I don’t think you do. To clarify, I’m not saying my Rebbe was the same as Moshe Rabbeinu (although I would say he was the Moshe of this generation – ispashtusa dMoshe bchol dara vdara.) What I am saying is that motives that your would assume for a regular individual do not apply when we’re talking about a tzadik who has no self serving motives. Another example: seeing the Holy Ruzhiner walking about in his golden boots, would you think he was into Gashmius extravagance? I would say no, obviously not because he was a tzadik and for a tzadik such mundane desires aren’t applicable. (Happens to be that there were no soles to the boots precisely so he shouldn’t benefit from them but even if he did have, I wouldn’t think of applying such motives to him.)

Me : “Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”

You : “No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.”

Exactly. If you look it up you will see there were many laudable quotes brought by other tzaddikim and Torah leaders.

“CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.”

Thanks. I see that.