@Neville ChaimBerlin
“I will say though that what Chossid is implying about shaving being a more extreme heter than being mevatil the mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah is completely absurd. The heter of not sleeping in the Sukkah is actually explicitly cited as a retroactive heter (a psak made in response to masses being meikel with no heter) in the S”A. You have no proof that bochrim being clean shaven for bal gaavah reasons is a retroactive heter. We don’t posken, like Chabad I believe does, that there’s a problem of lo yilbash in shaving the face, so it’s not a kulah by us. Sleeping in the Sukkah, on the other hand, all hold is a d’oraysa.”
When it’s raining outside to you eat and sleep in the sukkah or you go inside? I don’t know, but guessing that you go inside and rely on the retroactive hetter, even though the Rama says we should be machmir.
I think you should learn some shulchon aruch, gemorah, and the sicha, before we come to conclusions.
“The reason it’s getting so much discussion here and because it is quite possibly the only example of a group claiming that being mevatel a mitvah d’oraysa is a chumrah.”
The first the question is, are we bieng מקיים a מצוה through sleeping in the sukkah or just an an eisur not to sleep in the sukkah?
(See צפנת פענח on the רמב”ם ה’ סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.)
And If it’s a chiyuv deoreisa to sleep in the sukkah then how can do we explain this Gemorah?
סוכה דף נ”ג עמ’ א’,
תניא אמר ר’ יהושע בן חנניה כשהיינו שמחים שמחת בית השואבה לא ראינו שינה בעינינו כיצד שעה ראשונה תמיד של שחר משם לתפלה משם לקרבן מוסף משם לתפלת המוספין משם לבית המדרש משם לאכילה ושתיה משם לתפלת המנחה משם לתמיד של בין הערבים מכאן ואילך לשמחת בית השואבה.
(@Rso btw from the המשך הגמרא you see your question you asked on me.)
If It’s a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah then they wore furced to go to sleep? ( Which means they would have to leave the ezorah and go to sleep in the sukkah חוץ לעזרה). Why didn’t they?
From this Gemorah the Rebbe brings a rayeh that sleeping is a פרט which is nichlal in the mitzvah תשבו כעין תדורו not a separate inyen, so the chachomim wore מקיים the mitzvah of תשבו כעין תדורו by eating and drinking in the sukkah , even without sleeping, because that’s the real chiyuv deoreisa of תשבו כעין תדורו, so my them not sleeping wasn’t being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. So even if someone doesn’t sleep in the sukkah (or sleeps with a heter) he was מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות just like the תנאים.
(Btw from here we can answer why we don’t make a brocha on sleeping in the sukkah, because it’s nichlal in the תשבו כעין תדורו of eating.)
With this the Rebbe explains his question how is it possible that a reason of tzar according to penimius hatorah be bestirah to niglah detorah.
So from all the above, we see that sleeping in the sukkah is not an mitzvah deorysa rather if you’re going to sleep you should do so in the sukkah because תשבו כעין תדורו. But you’re מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות even without sleeping.
And we see from the Rama that where he came from, אשכנזים that they wore not נוהג so sleep in the sukkah, only the medakdekim wore, and he writes in the end you should be machmir if you can (even after the explanations of tzar).
רמ”א סימן תרל”ט סעיף ב’
הגה: ומה שנוהגין להקל עכשיו בשינה שאין ישנים בסוכה רק המדקדקין במצות יש אומרים משום צינה דיש צער לישן במקומות הקרים [מרדכי פ’ הישן] ולי נראה משום דמצות סוכה איש וביתו איש ואשתו כדרך שהוא דר כל השנה ובמקום שלא יכול לישן עם אשתו שאין לו סוכה מיוחדת פטור וטוב להחמיר ולהיות שם עם אשתו כמו שהוא דר כל השנה אם אפשר להיות לו סוכה מיוחדת:
So we see from here it’s a question of chumrah to sleep in the sukkah. Whether you should be makpid or not to be machmir, even though you have reasons to be exempt.
(And btw to those tayning that I think rso “if is a minheg that I will accept it, but it’s totally wrong to justify it”, we see from the Rama himself that he justifies a minheg that he had. So I don’t get why people are having a problem with the Rebbe justifying a minheg, Aderabeh the Rama doesn’t seem to accept to just like that, rather finds away to justify it.)
The Rebbes asks even we say it’s just a chumrah why wore the rabbeim not makpid in it, we see that the rabbeim wore makpid not to even drink water out of the sukkah, and even on shmini atzres, and even if it’s raining, so why wore they not makid to sleep in the sukkah?
So the explanation is, ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה? How is it possible to sleep when there is such crazy oirios in the sukkah, which is a geder of tzar. the way I understand the explanation is, that they couldn’t overcome the tzar of sleeping in the sukkah because it’s an inyen ruchni but tzar of an inyen gashmi it is possible to overcome, so that’s why they wore makpid in sukkah even if they had tzar gashmi like rain….. but not tzar ruchni.
So it’s not justifying being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. Rather a chumrah.
About the comparison to beards, it’s a least the same category as sukkah (definitely not worse) but I still didn’t go through the sugya of shaving well so i will go through it soon to see the opinions and what exactly is the heter. Or if you can explain it to me it will be awesome.
And btw from the safer הדרת פנים זקן you can see that many gedoilim say to wear a beard, (I think even bochurim) check it up and for the names.
(next time I get ahold of the safer I will try bring the names).