DaasYochid ☕
“1) If someone will sleep, it’s a chiyuv to do so in the sukkah.
The Lubavicher “minhag” is to sleep outside of the sukkah.”
Exactly. (Unless he has a hetter). And it was the Ramas minhag too.
You missed my point.
What I’m trying to bring out (from the Gemorah) is, that by not sleeping in the sukkah, is not being mevatel a deorysa, because he fulfilled the mitzvah of תשבו by eating in the sukkah. Sleeping is only a separate פרט in the תשבו. Therefore the chachomim weren’t being mevatel a deorysa, by not sleeping. But yes if you are going to sleep there is a chiyuv to do so if you don’t have a hetter.
I will bring out the point with an example regarding the first night.
If it’s raining or it’s very cold, you still have a chiyuv (deorysa) to eat (at least) a kezayes in the sukkah, because if not, you will be mevatel a deorysa. But do you have to sleep in the sukkah that first night in the rain? I don’t think so (I’m not 100%) Because you wore already mekayem the chiyuyof תשבו by eating there.
So we see from here, that not sleeping is not being mevatel a deorysa, the only thing that there is, is a chiyuv, if you don’t have a hetter.
“2) The R’ma is specifically talking about when/where it’s cold, or married men.
Ie. Tzar
Lubavicher bochurim sleep in the house even when it’s nice outside.”
With a hetter,
Just there is room for debate what’s considered tzar. But it’s not being mevatel a deorysa.
Rso:
““Retroactive heter”?! There is no retroactive heter if it’s raining and the rain ruins your food or disturbs your sleep. It is a halocho paskened openly by ALL poskim. The only “retroactive heter” is not sleeping in a sukkah when the weather and other physical considerations do not disturb, and that is where the Rema says that it appears to him that the reason people don’t sleep in a sukkah is…
That is a “retroactive heter”.”
Ok just instead of “raining” it’s very cold and you can’t sleep properly.
My point is, why are you ok (like you said) with just relying on a minheg without a reason for it, If we see from the Rama that he doesn’t leave his minheg just like that, rather he justifies it with a reasoning why you can be maikul.
The only thing I could understand from you is, why is the reasoning valid.
but is not a problem to justifying it.
That’s all what I was trying to say. I just wasn’t clear.
“Because they wouldn’t have gone home to sleep if there was Simchas Beis Hasho’eiva any other time of the year either. That is the rule of תשבו געין תדורו. For the same reason someone who is traveling is not obligated to sleep in a sukkah.”
See what I wrote earlier to dassyochid.
Rso
“Did he really say that?! So he just ignores Rav Shulchon Oruch 5639 se’ifim 4 and 8?!
How far are you people allowed to distort things in order to prove that you are right?”
What did he ignore?
I hope you can understand now, after I explained it again.
“And if you sleep outside a sukkah the shiur of sleeping, which is even the smallest amount, you are mevatel the same mitzvas asei.”
Wondering, are you being mevatel a deorysa the first night by not sleeping in the sukkah if there is tzar of rain?
This is what I see from the shulchon aruch
ירדו גשמים הרי זה נכנס לתוך הבית מאימתי מותר לפנות משירדו לתוך הסוכה טפות שאם יפלו לתוך התבשיל יפסל אפילו תבשיל של פול: הגה ואפי’ אין תבשיל לפניו [סמ”ג והגהות אשירי] ומי שאינו בקי בזה השיעור ישער אם ירדו כל כך גשמים לבית אם היה יוצא יצא מסוכתו ג”כ [א”ז והגהת אשירי פרק הישן ומרדכי פ”ב מיימוני פ”ו ומהרי”ל]
וכל זה דוקא בשאר ימים או לילות של סוכות אבל לילה הראשונה צריך לאכול כזית בסוכה אף אם גשמים יורדין [טור ור”ן והרא”ש] ויקדש בסוכה [כדי] שיאמר זמן על הסוכה [ת”ה סימן צ”ה]:
I only see you have a chiyuv to eat not sleep. Because davkeah non eating in the sukkah is being mevatel a deorysa not sleeping.
Let me know if I’m wrong in this example.
“Your rebbe’s justification does not”
His justification for himself or for the chassidim?
“Your rebbe’s justification does not, and it would have been better had he left it as a minhag without empty rationalizations.”
Thanks for giving the Rebbe advise. It’s a pity you weren’t there to give him advise 😉
Again my point is that by not sleeping in the sukkah, it’s not being mevatel a deorysa. Now regarding the chiyuv if you are going to sleep, the hetter is tzar.
The only question is what do we consider tzar, you don’t have to agree with the Rebbe if you don’t want to, it is a chidush.
But as a chossid you can realize what the tzar is, as a chossid to a Rebbe when a Rebbe is having pain or tzar in something, the chossid also does or he is feeling bad why isn’t it bothering me, when something is bothering the Rebbe.
But you don’t have to agree. I’m not here to convince you.