Reply To: Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

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AviraDeArah
Participant

Ever read chovos halevavos? Ever heard of the title?

What you describe is yeshayahu Leibowitz, pretty much copied and pasted. It is really your contention that if a jew keeps shabbos out of fear of communal reprisal but denies Hashem, that he is a “good jew”?

Mordechai kaplan said that one does not need to believe in Hashem to be a good jew. He was the founder of reconstructionist judaism; sounds like you and him would really hit it off.

Rav hirsch put other frum jews in cherem for espousing hererical beliefs regarding the definition of torah shebaal peh, including rav azriel hildeshimer.

The torah is repleat with exhortation after exhortation to love, fear, and obviously believe in Hashem. The mitzvos are meant to bring us to that state, and express those feelings as well.

Reform believed that only faith in god matters, and that Hashem doesn’t care what you do as long as it’s not hurting anyone. Conservative believe that Hashem cares a little about both. Reconstructionism said you can be a good jew without God.

Orthodox judaism requires belief and practice. Lo sasuru, a laav you probably don’t like very much, is violated, as in, Hashem cares about it, as in, a person burns in gehinnom for it, every time a heretical thought is entertained. Acharei levavchem zu minus.

If Hashem only cares about mindless actions, why is tefilah belo kavanah like a guf without a neshoma? Why does Hashem punish us tachas asher lo avadta….besimcha…merov kol, why does Hashem care if we serve him with joy and will punish us severely if we don’t…if all that matters are going through the motions?

During the war with amalek, why did it matter that klal yisroel were meshabed es libam, subjugated their heart to Hashem? Shouldn’t they win because they were doing the mitzvah of fighting the war, no matter what was going through their mind.

Mitzvos tzrichos kavanah is a machlokes. However one thing is clear; we don’t answer amen to the bracha of, say hamotzi, made by a known idol worshipper, because he beloeves in AZ.

Rav hutner makes an important point in his rebuttal to the common practice in chabad of putting tefilin on the oblivious heads and arms of frei people. He says that even if you hold mitzvos do not require kavanah(the jurys out on that one, it’s not resolved, which further disproves your “yiddishkeit” sweeping statements), it does require for you to be aware of the mitzvah that’s being done. Someone who does not believe in the mitzvos, wherher due to ignorance or kefirah, cannot do them, because there’s no such thing as a mitzvah without a metzaveh.

“Above all things, guard your mind/heart, for from it comes life” according to you, life comes from the body doing the actions.

The mesilas yeshorim explains, and I’m quoting this word fkr word: created the world to bestow upon His creations perfection, shlaimus, to be in a state where one can behold the shechina and enjoy it. The tools that bring one to this state are the mitzvos. The place where this experience is felt is olam haba. On this world, we experienced it too in the form lf dveikis “veani, kirvas elokim li tov’. That is the only good, to be close to Hashem. The opposite, aveiros and materialism, bring a person far from Hashem. According to you, eating and being materialistic is perfectly fine as long as you put on cow hides with scrolls in them, wear fringes on your 4 cornered garments and eat meat slaughtered in a special way.

The lengths you go to contrive a non existent yiddishkeit are baffling. Is this perhaps something a therapist recommended when you had problems with emunah, maybe OCD? To just do it anyway and not think about philosophy? It’s good advice for such conditions, maybe, but it’s not normal avodas Hashem.