Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

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  • #2081739

    Chabad do some incredible selfless work across the globe which so many people benefit from. Yet to many some of their practices seem worryingly against the mesorah and at times halachikly questionable, with some extreme elements elevating the Rebbe zichrono livrocha to levels not seen with any of the Gedolei Yisroel of even the Tanoim, Amoroim and Rishonim. Is this something that should be left to take it’s course, with the hope that at least many will eventually readjust their hashkofa somewhat over time to something more in line with accepted mesorah? or should a more active outreach approach be adopted?

    #2081910
    ujm
    Participant

    Define what a “Mashicist” is.

    How is that different than a “Elokist”? How many Elokists are there (5, 10, 1,000)?

    What percentage of Lubavitchers are NOT either of those two categories?

    #2081931
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Wow!

    You had this account for more than 2 years and this is your first post?

    Doesn’t Zman start today?

    #2081935
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Sure after we encourage all bored trolls to return bais medrash

    #2081937
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    All Yiddin should be Mashicists anxiously awaiting the coming of Moshiach. I don’t have a clue whot an Elokist is. The vast majority of Luvavitchers share our views on Moshiach with a few fringeelements holding mistaken views thinking they know the identity of Moshiach.

    #2081948
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Why does it bother you so much that people think differently? It’s not any worse than believing in flat earth or spaghetti monsters.

    #2081965
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    What would happen if some misguided souls from Willy bought a few slightly used yellow flags on E-Bay and paraded up and down in front of the Beit Medrash Hagadol in KJ singing that R’Yolish Z’L was moishiach?? Would that suggest that all the Aronites had suddenly become “Moishichists” and the Zalmanites were the only true Satmar still i”in the fold”?? As noted by many others on multiple threads, the segment of Chabadniks that take the extreme views regarding the Rebbe is very small.

    #2081966
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Nome, does Holocaust denial bother you? If so, is denying the Holocaust a worse evil than denying Hashem?

    What about people’s opinions of…slavery, racism, etc? Does it bother you? Why does it bother you and not torah issues – is it perhaps because *let people think what they want* only applies to issues which you’re dispassionate about?

    #2081974
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Dora:
    Your definition of “very small” includes their “Ask the Rabbi” host, on the video posted on an earlier thread, where he responded that his Rebbe’s characteristics include being infinite (ain sof), Godly (elokus), atzmius (God incarnate), among others.

    This is neo-Christianity, not Judaism, and Rav Aharon Feldman wrote that people who carry such beliefs are not “bichlal amisecha”, their shechita is invalid, their wine is yayin nesech, et al.

    It is highly disingenuous to compare this to your hypothetical and non-existent example wherein you named Satmar.

    #2081978
    HaKatan
    Participant

    No mesorah:
    That might be, for starters, because their influence is worldwide and people who eat meat slaughtered by them (by the neo-Christians, not by the “Meshichists”) would be eating neveila.

    #2081983
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Hakatan,

    Chabad shechita is almost always done in conjunction with other Jews.

    #2081982
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    I would love to help you. How did you get so mixed up? Flat earth is not a Torah issue. It’s a matter of truth. Same with the holocaust. Many people are uneducated and simply do not know any better. You seem to be confusing me with some archetype from your past. I have nothing in common with them. It’s fine with me whenever people think. Whether they want to or not. It disturbs me when people speak on behalf of the group, and only represent the margins. Though I’m used to it.

    #2081986
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Those kabbalistic terms are metaphors. There are many permitted meanings to them. Everybody knows that those that worship the rebbe are clueless. It does not make it permissible. But it does mean that you would not eat their shechita anyways.

    #2081988
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Katan: Well, having eaten at probably 25+ Chabad houses on 4 continents over the past 25 years, I’ve developed a taste for neveila.
    P.S. Every time I think we’ve graduated beyond these childish “bash Chabad” threads, a new one springs up. Sort of a chassidish/Litvish whackamole’

    #2081989
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    *It should also be noted that THe R”Y Rav Feldman SHLITA, is saying a chiddush. He does not bring specific proofs. And he does not clearly explain why this is worse than the real divergent schisms of the past.

    #2081994
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Nome; oy. You said it doesn’t bother you when someone has twisted views. You applied that mode of thinking to those who believe that their rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body. You say that it shouldn’t bother us. Why should we care what others think?

    To that i answered that i bet you’re not so dispassionate when faced with false opinions or false statements of fact regarding issues that you personally care about.

    I then drove home the point that the common denominator is that you and those like you don’t care what someone else believes or says….until it’s an issue that you care about.

    Therfore, you must not care much about kefirah or other torah matters which shoulf spur one to disgust.

    #2081995
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Believing in a man-god is a true/false issue. There aren’t two sides to it, unless you think they and Christians have a valid opinion.

    #2081997
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    So let’s ask this again – does Holocaust denial bother you? If not, does condoning mass genocide bother you? If yes, why does it bother you but kefirah does not? Is it not as important or deserving of repugnance?

    #2081999
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Don’t misunderstand me. It is what is. The smart ones figure it out. The silly ones don’t. Why intervene?

    #2082010
    @tothepoint
    Participant

    This post is very on the point, and it needs to be discussed seriously and not ridiculed by leitzonim.
    Unfortunately the problem is too common [without getting involved in numbers and percentages] and it involves core beliefs of Judaism.

    We should be deeply caring as they are are brethren, our flesh and our soul. Indeed the right formula is needed to reach out in a caring and effective manner, to save these wonderful Yidden.

    #2082011
    TS Baum
    Participant

    Every neshamah has a chelek elokah mima’al mamash, a literal part of Hashem inside himself, which is the base for the nefesh elokus.

    Please name one chabad rabbi (who does not belong in a mental rehab) who chas vshalom says that the Rebbe is Hashem.

    #2082015
    smerel
    Participant

    It is true that in Chabad they have lifted their leader almost to the point of deification R’L but they aren’t going to listen to any outside group who attempts to set them straight . There are few groups in the frum world who are as willing to ignore the vehement opposition of other groups as Chabad. BUT their result should be a lesson to all of us that you should not just ignore vehement opposition from Talmedey Chachomim from other groups

    #2082039
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ‘ Indeed the right formula is needed to reach out in a caring and effective manner, to save these wonderful Yidden…

    Tothepoint: Having re-read this thread several times, it appears you are the one most in need of intervention, not the over 100,000 yidden directly affiliated with Chabad.

    #2082046
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>Please name one chabad rabbi (who does not belong in a mental rehab) who chas vshalom says that the Rebbe is Hashem.

    They don’t say that the Rebbe is Hashem but they talk about him as if he were.

    And yes some of them refer to him as עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף R’L Something the rebbe himself made up. Some say that they don’t mean it literally . Others not so much.

    There are very few issues that I want to be proven wrong and made a fool out of myself for saying like this one

    #2082054
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Smerel,

    There phrases could mean many different things. Only the silliest think that it means the Rebbe is an actual Deity. They are so out of it anyways, that you wouldn’t associate with them anyways. And if you insist that anyone who uses those terms about the Rebbe is some sort of Apikores, than you are far more guilty of self worship than they are suspected of human worship.

    #2082055
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Point,

    If you really care, then you differentiate between what people say and what they really mean. Actions speak louder than words here too.

    #2082057
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    I do not expect simple people to know better. If someone grows up in Afghanistan, I do not expect them to have a truthful idea of what the holocaust was. The same as I do not expect people who learn in a yeshiva to have a truthful understanding of what the gemara is. I do not expect people to know why flat earth is easily disproved. I do not expect people to understand what belief in a Supreme God means. It’s not about values. It’s about what are people really like. Maybe won’t keep mixing up what you value with what you believe to be true. I don’t know. Sorry I can’t help you.

    #2082058
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Besides for a true/false question, there is also a ‘he has no idea what he is saying’ option. Which negates the whole thread. If they do not know the difference, than they are saying the same thing as the simpletons in every Jewish community. They are not expected to know better.

    #2082062
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rav belsky told me that the OU checks every chabad shochet to see if they have elohistic views.

    #2082067
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Yes. And that is not purely because of matters of belief. It also could be indicative of really simplistic thinking. And such people are not reliable, no matter what their views are.

    #2082071
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    To be clear, the amount of jews who say openly that the rebbe is god is a small number. The amount who believe that one can pray to him, that he is omniscient, that he helps you, that he never died, that he is one with god, and that when one has hiskashrus with him it is tantamount to hiskashrus with Hashem….those are themes you will find very commonplace.

    #2082072
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    What it sounds like, is that everyone is simple minded neanderthals, and that you’re god’s gift to humanity – a being of pure reason who is a shining beacon amid a sea of uneducated and unintelligent subhumans.

    Read your own statements again; the arrogance is hard to describe. Who if not people in yeshiva understand gemara? Just you? Just academics who study it the way they do Shakespeare?

    #2082070
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Shlomo cunin is the head of chabad of the west coast. He’s a very respected shliach. He said on tape that the rebbe runs the world.

    Another line that we can wisk away with “it’s Kabalah”?

    For someone who’s into so called “rational” judaism and highly critical of charedim, you seem awfully quick to want to defend chabad.

    Let’s see…. doesn’t think much of most of klal yisroel, open minded, has misconceptions about specifically brisk, defends chabad..

    Do i smell a chabadsker?

    #2082088
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    When you have to fall back on misquotes, and misrepresentations to bash a community, you know you are not in good company.

    #2082089
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    No. I’m not Chabad. Though I have been around a few. I guess you’ll be shocked to know the truth.

    ‘The Rebbe runs the world’ is a kabbalistic statement. ‘Whatever runs the world’ has to be a metaphor of some sort. Just to be clear, I’m not automatically defending the speaker.

    I have nothing in common with the Rational Judaism folk. They lie when it is rational to do so. And they do not care about the truth. They care about ‘proving a point’.

    Only chariedim stay around on this site after repeated criticism.

    #2082092
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avirah,

    You misunderstand me again! Many in yeshiva understand the gemara! Probably more than everywhere else combined. But because of this, they give little thought to how the gemara came to be. And they give it much weight in some places. And to little in others.

    I really think that fighting over proper belief is simple minded. Do you disagree?

    I do not consider myself blessed with clarity or pure reason. I was blessed with being born into the yeshiva world in a real sense that is not common to even by the most committed kolleliet. And I have had access to many great talmedei chachamim. Including pre-war Yidden. My nomadic existence has given me the abilities to test which thought experiments only works within the yeshiva. And which ones are more universal.

    It should not be hard to describe arrogance. Don’t worry about how I’ll take it.

    #2082093
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    On the main issue: the themes that you say are commonplace.

    Is that a problem to you? If they just mean the theme, than it should not be a big deal. Even though it sounds weird to us.

    #2082095
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Yes we should. But it’s a very difficult thing to do. Many Mashichists and Elokists (and by here, I’m using the definition of a person who believes the following: “Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson is or can be Moshiach and he can hear and fulfill our teffilos so we pray to him”) are very set in their ways and surrounded by many people who look like Erliche Yidden and are similarly convinced that this is how to follow Hashem’s Torah.

    I think the best we can do is be open and inviting to Chabadskers and show them how we daven (with only Hashem in mind) how we learn (from many Rishonim and Acharonim) how we listen to Da’as Torah (not every cough or sneeze from a Rov is something that needs to be written down and treated like Torahs Moshe m’Sinai C”V) and how most of the frum and even Chassidish world just lives and believes very differently than they are used to.

    #2082131
    justlookingin
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah: “…I’ve developed a taste for neveila. ”
    Well that explains a lot…

    #2082134
    mdd1
    Participant

    N0mesorah, you are trying to bend yourself over backwards just to justify Chabad. Why did you decide that none of them mean it about the Rebbe? And your explanation of the Rabbi Belsky psak is simply not true.

    #2082201
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I’m not bending myself at all. This is how I see it. And I have met some really far out chabad missionaries. Maybe I’m wrong. But they do not seem to be specific in their beliefs.

    Funny about Rav Belsky. My views on chabad have been shaped by him personally. Besides, I wasn’t only explaining his psak. I was making my point clear.

    #2082245
    Kuvult
    Participant

    I heard a Shiur on this topic (not specifically about Chabad). He explained Yiddishkeit is different than Xtianity in that Yiddishkeit is very low on beliefs and very high on action. While Xtianity is the opposite. There was a time when if the church said yoshka had brown hair and a xtian said he had blond hair they could be killed. Which to Jews makes no sense. We judge a person or group by whether they keep Torah and Mitzvahs. There are exceptions for example a Jew is publicly a Jew for Yoshka. But with the Chabad leadership denying these concepts and Chabad Jews being observant and have vague explanations it’s a non issue. I asked one major Chabadnik and he explained of course the Rebbe died but a Rebbe lives on through his students. Did he really believe that? I don’t know. But it’s not my job to investigate or make assumptions about someone who keeps Torah and mitzvahs.

    #2082265
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s true that christians place pretty much everything on faith in yushke. Christian theology literally holds that a nazi who believed in yushke has olam haba, but his jewish victims do not, because they reject him.

    It’s twisted, but that doesn’t mean we should twist yiddishkeit into orthopraxy.

    #2082263
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Kuv, what you heard is haskalah-based orthopraxy, where your actions count more than your beliefs.

    Tzadik beemunaso yichyeh; hen yiras Hashem for starters. The Torah s actions/mitzvos are meant letzaref es habros, chazal say. The zohar says that the mitzvos are “aitzos” to become close to Hashem. The gra writes that fixing one’s middos is tachlis hachaim.

    Doing an aveirah lands a person in gehinnom. Having hererical ideas makes him lose olam haba. Middos are also stuck with the person the way they were when he died.

    The early rishonim spent most of their seforim on hashkofa.

    I can go on and on.

    Short version; the shiur rabbi speaker person is puppeting maskilim who wanted to keep mitzvos without penimius or an emphasis on emunah.

    #2082306
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    You mamash have everything backwards. I’m so sad- I can’t even reply now.

    #2082339
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Avira, the speaker was making a point worth thinking into. Perhaps it was too broadly stated, or quoted. Like every statement, if you don’t preface it with 10 introductions about exceptions and what you don’t mean, you’ll have people pointing out how wrong you are because of the areas in which your point doesn’t apply.

    Get real. Listen to the actual point, and apply as fit. Especially, when the point is not the topic being discussed.

    #2082343
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is very obvious to anyone well versed in general Chasidishe Sefarim among others, what point is being made by these highly publicized Chabbad Rabbonim.

    Yes, it makes me cringe as well, being aware of how certain terms are much better off being kept with the original context. Anyone who follows the ideas of איהו שקיא דאילנא or מָה הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא מָלֵא כָּל הָעוֹלָם — אַף נְשָׁמָה מְלֵאָה אֶת כָּל הַגּוּף. מָה הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא זָן אֶת כָּל הָעוֹלָם כֻּלּוֹ — אַף נְשָׁמָה זָנָה אֶת כָּל הַגּוּף wouldn’t have a hard time understanding talk of חלק אלוק ממעל, and ממש.

    Referring to someone or something as godly is hardly new to Yiddishkeit. That is exactly what the speaker in the video was referring to when he expressed his dismay in trivializing the Rebbe’s successes by attributing it to a personality or charisma, rather than to heavenly aid and divine inspiration.

    Whether or not you believe in contemporary tzadikim having Ruach Hakodesh, I’m sure you’re aware than many great, holy, smart and pious people did and do believe so.

    #2082357
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    n0mesorah,

    “I really think that fighting over proper belief is simple minded. Do you disagree?”

    I sense a bit of Jonathan Swift in your responses. So yes, who cares on which side we open our eggs. However, if not for a belief in Hashem, that He created the world and that He is actively guiding the world and sees us and what we do, why do the mitzvos at all? I have non-frum relatives who R”L do not believe that the mitzvos are important. And I can’t let them cook unsupervised in my kitchen. Not because they don’t respect the mitzvos for my sake. On the contrary, they are very respectful, they check hechsherim, they ask which are milchig and which are fleishig keilim, etc. So why not? Because kashrus accidents invariably occur, and because I believe in Hashem and that the mitzvos are actually vitally important, I want to know about the kashrus accident, even if it means a big inconvenience, loss of the food, or even losing the keilim. But my relatives don’t think that kashrus is such a big deal, and being nice, don’t want to cause me “unnecessary” stress or inconvenience. After all, the Torah says not to distress other people, right? So they will likely not mention the accident at all. No harm, no foul.

    #2082289
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Yiddishkeit is an orthoproxy. Especially in a yeshiva. Where do your ideas come from?

    #2082411
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Halevi, chelek eloka mimaal is discussed a lot in seforim. That statement does not say “the world will see that it’s the rebbe who runs the world”. You don’t need to be introduced with preconceived notions to see why that’s out of bounds. It’s not jumping to conclusions or taking it out of context. There’s no context for that belief.

    Similarly, at the council of shluchim, one of the organizers began with a vehi noam, that “the rebbe should look down and we should find favor before him”

    They pray to him. Many, many do; even non-meshichisten. Nobody ever prayed to the arizal, maggid, baal hatanya, ledushas levi, or anyone else. It’s avodah zara. Period.

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