AAQ said – “There were no Meah Shearim, everybody could read newspapers. They were in Yiddish and in Hebrew and in Polish and in Russian. I think you are projecting current charedi community into 1920s and think Mizrahi went there.”
(Um, scratching head…) Huh? in Meah Shearim whoever wants can easily read כל תועבות שבעולם on all types of media from printed to electronic without anyone being the wiser… If they don’t (I believe most don’t ברוך השם), it’s only because they consciously choose מרצונם הטוב מתוך בחירה חופשית to listen to the Gedolim who tell them not to. Do you seriously think today’s Chareidim are MORE insulated than our great-great-great-Zeidies were 130 years ago?! Mizrachi first came on the scene in the 1890s, at that time the wholesale yeridah was mainly in the cities, the small town Yidden were still vastly more innocent than we are today. By the 1920’s, post the upheaval of WWI, the matzav was worse.
“The modern movements were very attractive: “we can build a new life!” If you and I were there, we would probably join also. So, under these conditions, Zionism in general was a good thing comparing to the alternatives – taking people with socialist (left wing) or nationalist (right wing) ideas into building up Jewish nation instead of Russian/Polish/German or world communism. And, of course, religious Zionism let people combine these new passions with traditional Judaism. I would say even if/where they went too far (from our view a century later),”
The various ‘isms of the late 1800s were not about living the good life. Most of the early Maskilim were ‘starving artist’ types who were ‘lishma’ in their krum way. The people who joined were also not burned out people looking for an easier or better life. (Those types went to America if they could… Not trying to downplay the nisayon of either group, just clarifying what we are talking about.) The typical profile of the Socialist/Marxist were young, bright, and idealistic youths out to save the world. Those who were strong in Emuna channeled their youthful idealism into Torah and mitzvos. Those who were not, knew they were not Kosher Jewishly and made a conscious decision to leave. Mizrachi did not recruit among people who were already socialists, and offer them some Yiddishkeit to go with their Communist Manifesto… They recruited from inside the Beis Hamidrash and Shul, from those who had no intention of going OTD.
“And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so.”
Reb Elchonon zt”l hy”d simply and literally made exactly that cheshbon, on his own flesh, and chose to go back to near-certain death rather than join the faculty of YU… I was simply pointing out that the vast majority of adults alive pre-WWII are anyway no longer alive today regardless of what happened to them during the war. The only question is where ARE they NOW? In the Heichal of Harugei Malchus with Rabbi Akiva? In the Heichal of the Chafetz Chaim or Reb Chaim Brisker or at least Ehrlicher Baalei Agalos? Or downstairs with Herzl and Karl Marx? Sooner or later, that is all that matters for all of us.
All of this talk about the Holocaust is really just a waste of time. The Holocaust was a גזרה מן השמים that could not be stopped by any means, ברוחניות ובגשמיות, many מחללי שבת and even Zionists were killed, and many Frum people escaped. The vast majority of people didn’t have real options to escape, unless they had money, connections, or family in America with money. Most did not, regardless of which Rav/Rebbe they followed. My GGF escaped to America on his Rebbe’s advice, while it was still relatively easy to get visas… My other Elter Zeide had family in England, and from there moved on to America. It is not true that ALL of the Rabbonim said to stay, and equally untrue to think escaping was an option for everyone.
“but then in 1920-30s Sochnut centralized donations and directed them towards kibbutzim and acquiring land rather than manufacturing in Tel Aviv area – for ideological reasons. In hind side, land was important factor, of course, but the price was that manufacturing had potential of generating wealth, giving jobs to new arrivials, while kibbutzim were money pits. So, for example, German Jews were not interested in coming to a place with no job prospects until it was too late.”
The ‘Sochnut’ being part of the WZO… Of which Mizrachi were members… It gets worse. They deliberately sabotaged rescue efforts if those being rescued were the ‘wrong’ kind. ואכמ״ל וד״ל
“Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow …”
The New Yishuv, who were the ones engaged in dialog with BG, were members of government from the get go. There was pressure to keep them quiet.
“And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.”
They were already coming because their Arab neighbors were killing them post 1948… Menachem Begin got their support in 1978…
AAQ said – “Again, I do have mixed feelnigs about charedi community – indeed, great growth numbers but at the expense of changing the character of what passes as Torah:
Because our Bubbies and Zaidies centuries ago who still possessed the true Torah were using birth control… The only difference is 50% of kids were dying then from smallpox/DTP/MMR/strep=scarlet fever/etc… We learn and keep the same Torah they did.
“aggressive self-righteousness, lack of ahava towards other Jews”
Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews… BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)
“having no shame in living at someone else’s expense (and in Israel – lives)”
“Living at someone else’s expense” is only an issue if nothing is being accomplished or given in return. There are many fine Yidden, some of them very wealthy, who strongly believe that their best investment is supporting Torah. WRT Israel and the Army etc. I will write IY”H a separate post. BTW, I live here and pay taxes here, and have had missiles shot near my house here… My father-in-law served with distinction in the Golani Brigade. The armchair Zionist big talkers in America don’t trouble me…
“bite as a horse” attitudes towards anyone who learned chochma.”
I’m assuming you’re paraphrasing the “bite as a donkey” attitude towards anyone who learned Torah… Disclaimer – I am not a Litvak, I’m Chassidish. TTBOMK, the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.
“Rough generalizations, of course, but Emes is too high a price to pay for Survival”
You are arrogating to yourself the authority to define ‘Emes’ of Torah, i.e. Divine Emes… Why do you think you are qualified to do so?
“And this is nothing new in history, there were all kind of Jews at all times, but I think talmidei chachamim of previous generations policed their members better than now,”
That’s the exact same trope used in EVERY generation by those who didn’t want to listen to the Talmidei Chachamim of THEIR generation…