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some> drag Rav Chaim’s name through the mud
did you miss an article recently showing a letter from R Shmuel Kamenetsky to R Chaim asking him to clarify his position and his response? Note that this also shows that R Shmuel had a question and would accept an answer going both ways.
As to pseudo-Q, there is clearly a power struggle between R- and C- and religious Jews in this election, as we see from their promotion of R Landau’s letter. So, then your non-vote helps the Reformim. I am not saying this is dismissing all other possible arguments, but it is something to keep in mind that your standing for purity of something (something that R Chaim and poss R Shmuel did not stand for) is of help to, H’V strength Reformim in EY). So, for those who have a sofek, this should matter,
Why does everything have to do with ‘Eretz HaKodesh’? EHK or any other party to the WZO (there are another three Orthodox parties BTW – Shas, Aish Hatorah,and Mizrachi) has zero power to stop the Reform and Conservative loonies from doing anything. Even if they could stop all WZO funding for Reform/Conservative (they can’t), there are still plenty of private donors with lots of money to give to these krum causes. There really aren’t any native Israelis who believe in Reform/Conservative, they are either American expats, or local atheists. (Yair Lapid sometimes goes to a Reform congregation in Tel Aviv to do something. What exactly, I don’t know.) The handful of local Israeli ‘Reform’ really don’t believe in anything. They just use the Reform ’cause’ to promote their anti-Torah agenda by demanding that the State recognize ‘alternative streams’ of ‘Judaism’. The Supreme Court, AG, media, etc. help them in every way they can, against the wishes of the majority, in the name of ‘democracy’, despite the Likud/Chareidi/Dati block winning election after election (in real elections). What does this have to do with EHK, or even the WZO, for that matter?
BTW, the reason American non-Orthodox Jews have so much influence in the WZO is not because they VOTE in their elections, it’s because they GIVE most of the money… In the unlikely event that the WZO stops doing what they want it to do, they will stop sending them money, and send it directly to the causes they favor. That is precisely the reason the four Orthodox parties in the WZO can do nothing to stop them. What exactly can EHK do about that?
By the way, the World Mizrachi Organization was founded over 120 years ago, to represent Mitzvah observant Jewry in the WZO (right from the start). At the time, the majority of Yidden were still basically Orthodox. The naive/krum Mizrachi leaders thought that the more Frum representatives they could get in, the more they could steer the new Zionist movement in a Kosher direction… Leaving aside the issues involved in Zionism itself, there were those (baalei battim) who said that once there was an organized movement to settle Eretz Yisroel why not vote in some of our chevra and get a piece of the pie for Yeshivos, Frum settlements, etc. … The Gedolim of that generation did not agree with that approach. They warned that the ones who would control the WZO would be the ones with the money and political connections (Rothschild family etc.), and no amount of Frum representation would be able to change that… All the Mizrachi would accomplish is to provide a ‘hechsher stamp’ to draw the as-yet observant Yidden closer to people with very krum hashkofos, with disastrous results. The rest is history…
That is the bottom line at the WZO until today – the people who give 95% the money will control 95% of the money, and EHK can do nothing about it. If YOU have money, give it directly to worthy causes. You will accomplish much more for Klal Yisroel.
YYA – you clearly don’t know how the WZO gets its funding. It doesn’t come from private donors.
Every time a property is sold/bought in Israel, there is a special tax that is paid. That tax goes to the WZO, and that is where the funding comes from.“DaMoshe” and “Rocky” – The WZO is an umbrella for three different organizations, only one of which works (sort of) the way you described. The ‘Minhal’ as it’s called here, ‘leases out’ most, not all of the land in Israel. Some of that money goes back to the JNF pot. In my case, the (very modest) ‘lease fee’ was already paid for 49 years in advance by the guy who sold to me. (I see that the ‘Zionists’ in the discussion have never bought property here…) BTW, much of the real estate in Yerushalayim is owned and ‘leased out’ in a similar manner by the Greek Orthodox Church, and the money goes to them… Does anyone suggest attempting to join their church to try to influence what they do with that money? And yes, joining the WZO, even symbolically, is according to many Gedolim past and present, is pledging allegiance to kefirah.
EHK is one of four Orthodox parties (Mizrachi, Shas, Aish Hatorah, EHK) in the WZO. Mizrachi has been there from the beginning in 1897 or so and is one of the most powerful parties (unlike in the Knesset, where it split up). None of those groups were able to stop any of the krum stuff the WZO funds.
Much of the information posted by EHK is deliberately misleading. For example, they make much ado about the cases brought (sometimes by Reform or Conservative activists, sometimes by other disgruntled parties) to the Israeli Supreme Court to harm Chareidi interests. To bring such a case to ‘Bagatz’ costs several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees. How much is that for George Soros? (Yes, they get money from him too.) And he is far from alone in supporting them. Does anyone think they will be deterred by cutting off one source of money, even if that itself were possible?
Now that voting has closed by the Kefira WZO, how long will it take to confirm how badly the EHK lost?
I am torn between Mizrachi and EH. Mizrachi is an established religious organization in best position to influence politics and developed overall view on all Yidden in EY, and lead by a talmid chacham, R Schachter. EH is started by courageous people who dare to join am yisroel despite opposition of people from their own group – so I’d like to encourage them, but at the end they may not be there to care for everyone but just to get funds for their own mosdos, although maybe getting more influence in those mosdos as a result… I have 2 hours to think about it …
With so many ashkenazi parties – It would be easier to be a sephardi – there is “raq shas”
I wonder whether we will ever have “World Torah Elections” – maybe proportional representation: 20% of votes reserved for those who know all mashechtot, 20% of those who learned at least one, 20% for those who know Mishna, 20% for those who know Chumash, 20% for the rest kehilas Yaakov
Is there a way to find out the results?
YY> his is in stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
I am not sure about WZO, but I think Mizrachi early position on cooperating with – mostly anti-religious at the time Zionists – paid off by having Israeli law incorporate some respect for tradition. If early non-religious leaders were on their own, Israel would have sunday for a day off. Eventually, R Schach and others accepted the reality and gradually joined Israeli politics.
Asher Weiss
A partial list of some of his questionable statements:
Nurses and doctors at Shaare Tzedek are required to treat Hamas terrorists since live terrorists are more valuable than dead ones in a prisoner exchange. He also says that Israel should obey international law. If Israel followed international law/opinion, the state of Israel would never have gotten off the ground nor could we combat terrorism and the Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael would come to an end.
Soldiers should not give their wives a conditional gett before going to war. https://rumble.com/v3pi5mv-asher-weiss-misrepresents-the-jewish-law-on-gittin-in-times-of-war.htmlSaid that halacha required people to take the first three shots of the covid vax. He was short on sources and does not take questions on the matter. It is obvious now that Pfizer etc. fabricated data to make the shots look safe. There are governments that don’t recommend that many populations do not take them now. I have been to several funerals and shivas from people who took the jabs, along with others who have been injured. In fact, I was at a Shabbat meal recently, where the host’s father got a stroke after one of the shots. Also, witness that the YU alumni news has had a lot more death notices of people under 50.Vid here of him giving a menacing look to a rabbi questioning him about the vax and his driver pushes the questioner (granted that the style had a gotcha component to it.) {https://rumble.com/v2ay2n4-confronting-asher-weiss-and-getting-assaulted.html]. Reb Moshe would allow questions and provided sources on his teshuvot.
Admits that he is a posek for the Shebak [https://rumble.com/v3pasfk-asher-weiss-lets-it-drop-that-he-takes-halachic-questions-from-the-shabak.html]. Every position he takes, backs the anti-Torah government of Israel. The Sheback, like the IDF, has a large left wing component to it. On Nov 4, 1976, RMK HYD, whose yahrtzeit wasin MarCheshvan, was beaten up by them and left for dead in the Old City. They also have tortured suspects without evidence. They took away the gun from the only licensed person on the Yishuv recently.
Decries violations of public health (like masking and vaxing), yet won’t assur soda, candy, nor foods cooked with canola oil, which are bad for one’s health according to all medical opinions.
IT IS RAV ASHER WEISS – not asher weiss.
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Thank you.
.dak > his questionable statements:
Dak, your thinking is really backwards: you are saying that your positions are opposite to the one of the respected posek – on issues on which, I presume, you do not bare any specific expertise. Maybe instead you just make a note that you need to reconsider some of your views or at least admit that those views have solid halachik backing. Start with something simple, like looking up medical papers on efficacy of vaccines or reviewing YWN death notices in 2020-21 …
‘Always_Ask_Questions” said: “I am not sure about WZO, but I think Mizrachi early position on cooperating with – mostly anti-religious at the time Zionists – paid off by having Israeli law incorporate some respect for tradition. If early non-religious leaders were on their own, Israel would have sunday for a day off.”
If the early secular Zionists would have been left on their own (without Mizrachi), they would have ended up building a Communist paradise in Uganda, at most… Herzl, even after writing Das Juden Staadt, didn’t even know that the Jews had a historical homeland until some good people told him… The world was very different back then, and most of Klal Yisroel (who were still in Eastern Europe and mostly observant until WWI) would not have bought into a movement of hard-core atheists who had no understanding of their culture or even language, and who would have been kicked out of any Frum venue. The Mizrachi got the secular Zionists ‘in the door’ of Eastern European Jewry in the late 19th and early 20th century, and did the same some decades later with the Sephardi Olim. This directly resulted in the success of Zionism as a movement, and also the loss of most of Klal Yisroel, to Torah observance… This is leaving aside the whole sorry story of the ‘Rabbanut’, which was dominated by Mizrachi from the start. The secularists would not have gotten anywhere with the poshutte Yidden of 130 years ago without the Mizrachi and their crooked/maskilish/apikorsish ‘Ra-banim’.
“Eventually, R Schach and others accepted the reality and gradually joined Israeli politics.”
You seem to be unfamiliar with history, as Rav Shach first became active in public life decades after the State was founded… There were already Chareidi members in the first Knesset, including the Gerer Rebbe’s brother-in-law R’ Itche Meir Levine. The first organized Chareidi counterbalance to Mizrachi was Agudas Yisroel, founded operationally in the early 1920s. The cornerstone of their hashkafa was practical political activism, along with refusal to join the WZO… The WZO was and remains primarily concerned with promoting Zionist values and ideology. Once the state was a practical reality, no-one ‘accepted’ or ‘gradually joined’ anything. Those who opposed any interaction with the Zionists on any level – continue to do so until today. The Agudah immediately joined the Knesset, but not the WZO… which remains their official policy until today… What did gradually change, was that the secular Left no longer believes in Zionism… Today’s Zionists are mostly descendants of Mizrachi…
The so called ‘Status Quo Agreements’ you are probably referring to, were negotiated during the British Mandate, primarily by Agudah (which at the time included Neturei Karta lead by R’ Amram Blau… check it out, it’s true.) The Mizrachi mostly did damage, then and now. BTW, one of the leading Agudah activists at that time was R’ Moshe Blau (the brother of…) who died suddenly under mysterious circumstances in the middle of the negotiations… There were other victims (Chareidi and secular) of Sudden Zionist Death Syndrome, mainly before the State.
YY > The Mizrachi got the secular Zionists ‘in the door’ of Eastern European Jewry in the late 19th and early 20th century,
This seems like a story … Jews had a “healthy” choice of secular movements – bundists, hebrew culturalists, socialists, communists that they were rapidly joining. Sure, there were religious Jews who supported Mizrachi – do you claim that they necessarily became non-religious after that? This is a strange claim. If they became mizrachi, they probably stayed. If you consider any association with zionism an aveira, then I understand what you are saying, but otherwise, I don’t think mizrachi made JEws non-religious. Possibly, it worked other way around – those excited about settling in EY had a religious option.
Even non-religious Zionists have some zechut – they were competing with the secular movements ^, and those who became Zionists rather than communists definitely had a higher chance of survival; did not have blood of ,illions on their hands; and probably have their grandchildren Jewish.> This is leaving aside the whole sorry story of the ‘Rabbanut’, which was dominated by Mizrachi from the start. …The so called ‘Status Quo Agreements’ you are probably referring to, were negotiated during the British Mandate, primarily by Agudah (which at the time included Neturei Karta lead by R’ Amram Blau… check it out, it’s true.) The Mizrachi mostly did damage,
I did not mean to skip Agudah activities in general, I was thinking about activities affecting all Jews in the State. As you are saying, Agudah was making arrangements mostly for themselves, while Mizrachi established Rabanut and affected everyone. Agudah early on joined Knesset, but did not participate in the government. Mizrachi was sometimes struggling about this issue also, but preferred participation.
> Today’s Zionists are mostly descendants of Mizrachi…
Indeed, that is why I think making today’s political decisions based on (sometimes bad) history between non-religious Zionists and Agudah is not useful.
The anti-religious left moved to other ideologies. So, we need simply to see what today’s positions are, not what was happening 100 years ago.yaakov yosef is correct.
Nu, did the so-called Eretz Hakodesh party crash and burn?
Nu, did your friends [who you are benefitting and end up working for] the Lefties , the Reform and Conservative win ?
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.ujm
who you rooting for? Reform? Progressive slate? Mizrachi?
Always Ask Questions – “Jews had a “healthy” choice of secular movements – bundists, hebrew culturalists, socialists, communists that they were rapidly joining”
Very true. But those Jews knew THEY were going OUT the door. Mizrachi brought the apikorsim IN the door, to reach Yidden who otherwise would NOT have gone off. That is a huge difference. Once the connection was made, even if they remained from, their children often did not. Many sincere, ehrlich Yidden, who sincerely wanted to build Eretz Yisroel, and founded places like Petach Tikvah, Rosh Pina, etc., saw their children and grandchildren go lost, because the secularists were also there, with loads of money from the WZO… I am not even talking about the issue of Zionism per se, just regular Jewish observance.
Also important to note: None of those other movements attained the popularity of Zionism, and none of them survived as distinct Jewish movements after the Holocaust. The culturalists and socialists to a large extent blended into Zionism.
“As you are saying, Agudah was making arrangements mostly for themselves, while Mizrachi established Rabanut and affected everyone.”
Agudah was making arrangements for all observant Jews in the land at the time. As I pointed out, at the time they were working together with what later became the Eidah Hachareidis, and even Neturei Karta. The agreements reached then with the British were held over by the early State, and continue to hold to a large extent down to today. Contrary to what you may think, the Rabbanut WAS NOT started by Mizrachi, but by outright secularists including Chaim Weizmann, who cleverly manipulated both the British and the various community organizations who couldn’t agree with each other. Mizrachi had unsuccessfully tried to start a similar project some years earlier. Once the ball got rolling, Mizrachi jumped on. By the way, Rav Kook z”l himself wasn’t exactly a typical Mizrachist either… The full history and nuances involved here are way beyond what can be fit into a comment section. I was working with the assumption that you are aware that all of these things were going on almost three decades BEFORE the State…
“Agudah early on joined Knesset, but did not participate in the government. Mizrachi was sometimes struggling about this issue also, but preferred participation.”
Both parties joined immediately. I’m not sure what you are referring to as ‘participation’. Negotiating and influencing – that’s what everyone was there for. Joining the coalition – depended on many factors not always under their control. Cooperating with the secular agenda – why should they? The only difference in ‘participation’ between the parties I can think of is that Agudah never took ministerial posts, which would give them executive responsibility for acts of state, including things not Halachically/Hashkaficly kosher.
“Indeed, that is why I think making today’s political decisions based on (sometimes bad) history between non-religious Zionists and Agudah is not useful. The anti-religious left moved to other ideologies. So, we need simply to see what today’s positions are, not what was happening 100 years ago.”
The history in-and-of-itself is not the reason for today’s political decisions, but there is much to be learned from it. מה ראו על ככה ומה הגיע עליהם. Those who listened to the Gedolim (both Agudah-type and outright anti-Zionist) did better in Yiddishkeit in the long run than those who did not (i.e. Mizrachi), even though they all had good intentions…
ubiq/Yankel: All three of them are better than the so-called EHK. At least they openly admit to being in the company of kofrim.
And the more of the openly kofrim that win, the less there will be of Jews who wear a yarmulka and publicly and proudly associate and collude with kofrim, thereby possibly confusing true Jews.
@yaakov yosef
FYI.
r yishak meir levin was a full minister in israels first government after the elections of 1949.
.Yy, I hear what you are saying. Let’s make sure we are not combining two issues: 1) you claim that Mizrahi affected those jews that were not affected by the non religious movements. Prob true, but it is a crime in your eyes because you are viewing any cooperation with zionists as a crime. 2) that Mizrahi made their children non religious. This is a serious claim. Is it really true? It probably was true early on, but so was with other jews, in Palestine andin Europe. It was everywhere.
At the end, children of those who moved to EY did better than of those who stayed in Europe listening to r Wasserman and others.The way you present history after that is somewhat colored by your opinion. Who started, who joined later… bottom line, Mizrahi Cooperated more and had influence on what the state was doing. I agree that both groups tried their best in unprecedented circumstances and had both good and bad Decisions. Even r Yochanan Ben Zakkai was not sure whether his negotiations with Romans were done correctly.
YY > Those who listened to the Gedolim (both Agudah-type and outright anti-Zionist) did better in Yiddishkeit in the long run than those who did not (i.e. Mizrachi),
putting aside that you don’t consider others gedolim and historical errors of preventing Yidden leaving Eastern Europe for EY and US, this is indeed a fundamental question – which derech is better for Yiddishkeit. I don’t have an answer here. And I will talk more on US side that I know better but prob similar applies in Israel. On one hand, Aguda approach was able to isolate and save from assimilation a lot of Yidden and many had large families in several generations. Those who were more exposed to non-Jewish world have higher assimilation rates and smaller families. But notice that both EY and US leaders considered these measures as emergency (midbar, Chazon Ish, breaking ribs while doing CPR R Kotler) – and now these communities normalized this emergency method, leading to three generations of Yidden with broken ribs wandering about the desert – well beyond the forty years of Mitzrayim. Now, some people are self-correcting. Going to colleges (often online diploma mills or Landers). Notice people who used to say “we live near Lakewood” switching to “we live in Toms River”. But mostly, there is a large community that focuses on self-preservation rather than Emes of Torah – and redefines what “emes” is according to their limited understanding. I don’t think this is what Hashem expects from Jews.
AAQ – 1) you claim that Mizrahi affected those jews that were not affected by the non religious movements. Prob true, but it is a crime in your eyes because you are viewing any cooperation with zionists as a crime.
I specifically spelled out that I am not getting into the issue of Zionism per se, only its results in the Ruchniyus department. There are others here who take a different approach, please do not automatically assume I speak on their behalf.
2) that Mizrahi made their children non religious. This is a serious claim. Is it really true?
I did not claim that Mizrachi ITSELF made their children non-religious. It facilitated contact between virulently anti-religious people on one hand, who the secular Zionists undeniably were, and people who were basically ehrlicher Yidden who they could never reach on their own. The results of that shidduch were disastrous, if not for the first generation, then for their children.
It probably was true early on, but so was with other jews, in Palestine andin Europe. It was everywhere.
You are going back to your previous line of reasoning, that ‘everyone everywhere was going off, so why get on Mizrachi?’ To that I responded, that those Jews who joined openly secularist movements knew THEY were going OUT. Mizrachi brought the secularists IN to reach Jews who, at the time, were not interested in going OUT. BTW, if you noticed, I am actually giving Mizrachi credit for the success of Zionism as a popular movement… You might like that…
At the end, children of those who moved to EY did better than of those who stayed in Europe listening to r Wasserman and others.
No, they did not. Seeing as almost all of those children are anyway no longer alive, due to 90 or so years passing, which group is in a better matzav now? The ones who listened and (many of them) died על קידוש השם, or the ones who didn’t listen, and lived (many of them were also killed) as מחללי שבת and בעלי עברה? If you truly believe that גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו. and what Rashi said in last weeks Parsha וחי בהם לעולם הבא then your statement doesn’t make sense. BTW, most of the pre-WWII ‘Zionists’ didn’t actually move to British Palestine, and many who tried were prevented from doing so by the British. Many Chareidim attempted to go to Eretz Yisroel, even before it became obvious that war was brewing (Zionism never held a monopoly on love for the real Eretz HaKodesh…), but the Zionists controlled the limited supply of ‘certificates’ issued by the British… All of this is well documented. This leaves aside the issue of Zionist sabotage of rescue efforts during the war, a subject that was censored and suppressed in Israel for decades.
By the way, in the long run, those who listen to Gedolim have more children and grandchildren… I don’t know if anyone did a rigorous study, but I suspect that the descendants of the Chareidim who did survive the Holocaust are more numerous than the descendants of the secular and even Mizrachist settlers of that era… So who did better even בגשמיות?
The way you present history after that is somewhat colored by your opinion. Who started, who joined later…
There is a concept in Torah outlook that who starts something is indicative of what that something is all about… Zionism in general was started by people who were very far from loving the special Kedushah of Eretz Yisroel… The Rabbanut was started by people who didn’t exactly want or need real Rabbinic guidance… Mizrachi was all about FOLLOWING, and following the WRONG people.
bottom line, Mizrahi Cooperated more and had influence on what the state was doing.
Cooperating is not the same as influencing, and may be the opposite… The early leaders of the State granted many concessions to the Chareidim in order to keep them quiet… They were sure that within a decade or two they would complete their work of shmad with both the new immigrants from Sephardic countries, and even the children of the Chareidim themselves. The Ra-Banim of Mizrachi were sent to convince the Olim parents to sent their children to the ‘Yeshiva’ in Deganya… I know personally three people who experienced this (as children, their parents are no longer alive) themselves. So what ‘influence’ are you referring to? What can Mizrachi show in the רוחניות department for almost 130 years of existence?
I agree that both groups tried their best in unprecedented circumstances and had both good and bad Decisions.
I agree that there were well meaning people on both sides. (I hinted to Rav Kook z”l being of a different type than the others.), but in hindsight there is no question who was right. My main point is that Mizrachi was born mostly of דעת בעלי בתים and people doing their own thing, good intentions notwithstanding.
Even r Yochanan Ben Zakkai was not sure whether his negotiations with Romans were done correctly.
Mizrachi was more Josephus and less Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai… Actually, it is very relevant to bring up רבן יוחנן בן זכאי, because תן לי יבנה וחכמיה is the precedent for Jewish survival, not political maneuvering…
Yankel Berel – Being a member of the coalition is not the same thing as being a minister. As far as I can find, he was never a minister. He was directly involved in all of the major agreements collectively referred to as the ‘status quo’, as well as government recognition, and eventually funding, for Chinuch Atzmai.
And the more of the openly kofrim that win, the more the truly confused Jews who really don’t know the difference between orthodoxy and their reform copycatters, the more those confused jews will follow those copycatters.
On your head.
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.YY > I did not claim that Mizrachi ITSELF made their children non-religious. It facilitated contact between virulently anti-religious people on one hand, who the secular Zionists undeniably were, and people who were basically ehrlicher Yidden who they could never reach on their own.
Eastern European Jews lived separately from Reform Jews in mid 19th century, and some rabonim blamed Mendelssohn for translating chumash into High German, enabling Jews to read German in general. But in the early 20th century, various -isms were all over Eastern Europe. There were no Meah Shearim, everybody could read newspapers. They were in Yiddish and in Hebrew and in Polish and in Russian. I think you are projecting current charedi community into 1920s and think Mizrahi went there.
The modern movements were very attractive: “we can build a new life!” If you and I were there, we would probably join also. So, under these conditions, Zionism in general was a good thing comparing to the alternatives – taking people with socialist (left wing) or nationalist (right wing) ideas into building up Jewish nation instead of Russian/Polish/German or world communism. And, of course, religious Zionism let people combine these new passions with traditional Judaism. I would say even if/where they went too far (from our view a century later),
YYA > The ones who listened and (many of them) died על קידוש השם, or the ones who didn’t listen, and lived (many of them were also killed) as מחללי שבת and בעלי עברה? … Many Chareidim attempted to go to Eretz Yisroel,
First, apples & oranges. We are trying to compare religious Jews who stayed and those who went. Not those who were not religious. And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so. I heard someone asking R Zelig Epstein – how did Mir Yeshiva left Vilna in 1940(!) despite R Grozdenski’s daas Torah? He quipped: it was not a problem, it was before daas Torah.
YYA > but the Zionists controlled the limited supply of ‘certificates’ issued by the British…
there was another issue here, according to research I saw some time ago: initially, donations were coming thru major gvirim, but then in 1920-30s Sochnut centralized donations and directed them towards kibbutzim and acquiring land rather than manufacturing in Tel Aviv area – for ideological reasons. In hind side, land was important factor, of course, but the price was that manufacturing had potential of generating wealth, giving jobs to new arrivials, while kibbutzim were money pits. So, for example, German Jews were not interested in coming to a place with no job prospects until it was too late.
YYA > The early leaders of the State granted many concessions to the Chareidim in order to keep them quiet… They were sure that within a decade or two they would complete their work of shmad with both the new immigrants from Sephardic countries, and even the children of the Chareidim themselves.
Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow … And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.
YYA > but in hindsight there is no question who was right. … תן לי יבנה וחכמיה is the precedent for Jewish survival, not political maneuvering…
A good analogy. Again, I do have mixed feelnigs about charedi community – indeed, great growth numbers but at the expense of changing the character of what passes as Torah: aggressive self-righteousness, lack of ahava towards other Jews, having no shame in living at someone else’s expense (and in Israel – lives), “bite as a horse” attitudes towards anyone who learned chochma. Rough generalizations, of course, but Emes is too high a price to pay for Survival. And this is nothing new in history, there were all kind of Jews at all times, but I think talmidei chachamim of previous generations policed their members better than now,
AAQ said – “On one hand, Aguda approach was able to isolate and save from assimilation a lot of Yidden and many had large families in several generations. Those who were more exposed to non-Jewish world have higher assimilation rates and smaller families. But notice that both EY and US leaders considered these measures as emergency (midbar, Chazon Ish, breaking ribs while doing CPR R Kotler) – and now these communities normalized this emergency method, leading to three generations of Yidden with broken ribs wandering about the desert”
You are misching together several unrelated issues, some of which have nothing to do with anything I posted. ‘Agudah approach was to isolate’ – no, actually Agudah was a political party/lobbying group. Its stance vis-a-vis Zionism was and is considered moderate. It was and remains an umbrella organization representing diverse groups (Chassidish, Litvish, German Jews in the early days, Sephardim before Shas). Being ‘isolated’ from the Goyim was the norm for most of Klal Yisroel pre-Haskalah.
The mass Kollel movement you seem to so deplore is peculiar to one particular branch of Chareidim, i.e. Litvaks, and isn’t the subject of this thread. It also didn’t start as an emergency measure, or have anything to do with preventing assimilation. When and where assimilation was an issue (pre-War Europe), there were very few people in Kollel. Lakewood didn’t begin to grow anywhere near its present size until well after the petirah of Reb Aharon Kotler, at which point American Jewry had become well established ברוחניות ובגשמיות. Why they do it the way they do is beyond the scope of this thread. (Disclaimer – I am not a Litvak, but I deeply respect כל אשר יראוך)
Chassidim typically were and are more zealous in distancing themselves from Goyish ways and influences, and typically have large families B”H, but generally did not embrace Kollel-for-everyone OR college-for-everyone. Many of them live near Lakewood/in Tom’s River… Chassidim also aren’t the subject of this thread.
“But mostly, there is a large community that focuses on self-preservation rather than Emes of Torah – and redefines what “emes” is according to their limited understanding. I don’t think this is what Hashem expects from Jews.”
WOW, that is a ‘humble’ statement. Thank you for kindly sharing with us of ‘limited understanding’, your profound השגה of ‘Emes of Torah’, based upon your presumably ‘unlimited’ understanding of what Hashem expects from Jews… Something you apparently believe you know more about than all of the Gedolim of the past 100 years who, nebbech, were busy with ‘self preservation’… Get real… I am not campaigning here for a particular Shittah or Gadol or subtype of Chareidim, חבר אני לכל אשר יראוך, but emphasis on the יראוך, and not איש הישר בעיניו יעשה.
@yaakov yosef
Check again .
R YM Levin carried the title of Sar HaSa’ad [minister of social services] in the first government after the 1949 elections.
This is not hidden or secret information.
.AAQ said – “There were no Meah Shearim, everybody could read newspapers. They were in Yiddish and in Hebrew and in Polish and in Russian. I think you are projecting current charedi community into 1920s and think Mizrahi went there.”
(Um, scratching head…) Huh? in Meah Shearim whoever wants can easily read כל תועבות שבעולם on all types of media from printed to electronic without anyone being the wiser… If they don’t (I believe most don’t ברוך השם), it’s only because they consciously choose מרצונם הטוב מתוך בחירה חופשית to listen to the Gedolim who tell them not to. Do you seriously think today’s Chareidim are MORE insulated than our great-great-great-Zeidies were 130 years ago?! Mizrachi first came on the scene in the 1890s, at that time the wholesale yeridah was mainly in the cities, the small town Yidden were still vastly more innocent than we are today. By the 1920’s, post the upheaval of WWI, the matzav was worse.
“The modern movements were very attractive: “we can build a new life!” If you and I were there, we would probably join also. So, under these conditions, Zionism in general was a good thing comparing to the alternatives – taking people with socialist (left wing) or nationalist (right wing) ideas into building up Jewish nation instead of Russian/Polish/German or world communism. And, of course, religious Zionism let people combine these new passions with traditional Judaism. I would say even if/where they went too far (from our view a century later),”
The various ‘isms of the late 1800s were not about living the good life. Most of the early Maskilim were ‘starving artist’ types who were ‘lishma’ in their krum way. The people who joined were also not burned out people looking for an easier or better life. (Those types went to America if they could… Not trying to downplay the nisayon of either group, just clarifying what we are talking about.) The typical profile of the Socialist/Marxist were young, bright, and idealistic youths out to save the world. Those who were strong in Emuna channeled their youthful idealism into Torah and mitzvos. Those who were not, knew they were not Kosher Jewishly and made a conscious decision to leave. Mizrachi did not recruit among people who were already socialists, and offer them some Yiddishkeit to go with their Communist Manifesto… They recruited from inside the Beis Hamidrash and Shul, from those who had no intention of going OTD.
“And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so.”
Reb Elchonon zt”l hy”d simply and literally made exactly that cheshbon, on his own flesh, and chose to go back to near-certain death rather than join the faculty of YU… I was simply pointing out that the vast majority of adults alive pre-WWII are anyway no longer alive today regardless of what happened to them during the war. The only question is where ARE they NOW? In the Heichal of Harugei Malchus with Rabbi Akiva? In the Heichal of the Chafetz Chaim or Reb Chaim Brisker or at least Ehrlicher Baalei Agalos? Or downstairs with Herzl and Karl Marx? Sooner or later, that is all that matters for all of us.
All of this talk about the Holocaust is really just a waste of time. The Holocaust was a גזרה מן השמים that could not be stopped by any means, ברוחניות ובגשמיות, many מחללי שבת and even Zionists were killed, and many Frum people escaped. The vast majority of people didn’t have real options to escape, unless they had money, connections, or family in America with money. Most did not, regardless of which Rav/Rebbe they followed. My GGF escaped to America on his Rebbe’s advice, while it was still relatively easy to get visas… My other Elter Zeide had family in England, and from there moved on to America. It is not true that ALL of the Rabbonim said to stay, and equally untrue to think escaping was an option for everyone.
“but then in 1920-30s Sochnut centralized donations and directed them towards kibbutzim and acquiring land rather than manufacturing in Tel Aviv area – for ideological reasons. In hind side, land was important factor, of course, but the price was that manufacturing had potential of generating wealth, giving jobs to new arrivials, while kibbutzim were money pits. So, for example, German Jews were not interested in coming to a place with no job prospects until it was too late.”
The ‘Sochnut’ being part of the WZO… Of which Mizrachi were members… It gets worse. They deliberately sabotaged rescue efforts if those being rescued were the ‘wrong’ kind. ואכמ״ל וד״ל
“Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow …”
The New Yishuv, who were the ones engaged in dialog with BG, were members of government from the get go. There was pressure to keep them quiet.
“And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.”
They were already coming because their Arab neighbors were killing them post 1948… Menachem Begin got their support in 1978…
AAQ said – “Again, I do have mixed feelnigs about charedi community – indeed, great growth numbers but at the expense of changing the character of what passes as Torah:
Because our Bubbies and Zaidies centuries ago who still possessed the true Torah were using birth control… The only difference is 50% of kids were dying then from smallpox/DTP/MMR/strep=scarlet fever/etc… We learn and keep the same Torah they did.
“aggressive self-righteousness, lack of ahava towards other Jews”
Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews… BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)
“having no shame in living at someone else’s expense (and in Israel – lives)”
“Living at someone else’s expense” is only an issue if nothing is being accomplished or given in return. There are many fine Yidden, some of them very wealthy, who strongly believe that their best investment is supporting Torah. WRT Israel and the Army etc. I will write IY”H a separate post. BTW, I live here and pay taxes here, and have had missiles shot near my house here… My father-in-law served with distinction in the Golani Brigade. The armchair Zionist big talkers in America don’t trouble me…
“bite as a horse” attitudes towards anyone who learned chochma.”
I’m assuming you’re paraphrasing the “bite as a donkey” attitude towards anyone who learned Torah… Disclaimer – I am not a Litvak, I’m Chassidish. TTBOMK, the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.
“Rough generalizations, of course, but Emes is too high a price to pay for Survival”
You are arrogating to yourself the authority to define ‘Emes’ of Torah, i.e. Divine Emes… Why do you think you are qualified to do so?
“And this is nothing new in history, there were all kind of Jews at all times, but I think talmidei chachamim of previous generations policed their members better than now,”
That’s the exact same trope used in EVERY generation by those who didn’t want to listen to the Talmidei Chachamim of THEIR generation…
Yankel Berel – Thank you, I wasn’t aware of that. They did stop doing that at some later point.
Yankel Berel – BTW, that would mean the Chareidim were even more involved, not less…
Just to set the record straight WRT the Army. Until the mid 90s more Chareidim did serve in the Army in various ways. What happened then, was that several cases were brought to the Supreme Court by girls who insisted on serving in previously male-only units. The Barak Court jumped on the opportunity, and the situation has deteriorated more and more ever since. There is now zero possibility of any minimally ‘kosher’ Army service, until a new legal framework is created for gender segregated units. This of course cannot happen until the Supreme Court is put in its place… This is so bad, that it is an issue even for the more serious Dati Leumi. There is even a lobbyist group of wives of Dati and Mesorti soldiers who don’t want their husbands exposed to temptation… This is no laughing matter. For those of you who are thinking of saying: “Well, if they were strong enough religiously coming out of Yeshivah than…” Ask yourselves the same question. As an 18 year old. In a stressful and foreign environment. Sometimes alone. With another 18 year old who is a nice Jewish girl after all… You really think you are Yosef HaTzaddik?
This, my friends, is the real issue. Every parent of draft-age boys knows this, whether their son is a learner or not, his place is not in the toilet bowl that the IDF has become. For reasons of tzniyus I will not elaborate with lurid details, stories, statistics, anecdotes, quotes from officers, and quotes from feminists. Those inclined to find out more can easily do so. Everyone involved knows all of this, but no-one has the guts to take on the all-powerful ‘Bagatz’. The strategy until now has been to kick the can down the road, because the Chareidi percent of the population is only getting bigger, and the Leftist percent getting smaller… At some point, the Chareidim will be powerful enough to rewrite the playbook, and establish real Kosher units on our terms. This is why the AG/Bagatz/Left/feminists want to force a precedent setting decision while they still can. The Army itself doesn’t need or want the Chareidim badly enough for it to be worth the headache as far as they are concerned… That’s why they have played along until now. Just look where the noise is coming from, and you will see this is true.
YYA > your profound השגה of ‘Emes of Torah’,
There is nothing profound here. This is direct from or direct implication from what the founders and current leaders say. The goal (and a very worthy one) is to protect the public. Protection means keeping separate from things that might be dangerous. This is part of the approach and we see here how this is applied to any topic: college/army/non-Jews/leaving yeshiva/zionists … There is a lot of good reasons for that. But it implies that every Talmid Chacham that disagrees is called an apikoires, because otherwise students might get wrong ideas in their head. And, again, you see it here – these negative opinions are not simply out of ignorance, they are being taught in order to protect the students.
R Salanter was wondering about the same. He admired, I think, R Hildesheimer Torah class in Germany that was attended by women but said – if I try something like that in Lita, I’ll be kicked out. So, that idea had to wait for Ms Schenirer to adopt from German Jews.
YYA > were not about living the good life.
I agree, I also meant various utopias by “new life”. I think our disagreement here is on the facts: you think that socialists were separate from kosher Yidden and the latter became Mizrachi (and later or their children became non-religious Zionists?). I think that there was a large mass of Jews who were moving from kosher to -isms (themselves or children) and it was way better to become Mizrachi than Commie. Hard to tell exactly but the number of those who remained observant were getting so small that you can’t say that this long Mizrachi-to-secular pipeline was decisive here.
YYA > Forgive me, Reb Yid, but you seem quite sure of your own righteousness when discussing Gedolim from previous generations… Some of your posts don’t exactly exude ahava towards other Jews…
I think I do. The fact that not everything every Rav said turned out perfect, does not mean disrespect or lack of love. As I say above, I see a lot of value in charedi approach. The fact that Chofetz Chaim did not think about schools for girls is a fact – that I tried to verify by reading a couple of volumes of his letters, but it does not take away all seforim and mussar lessons we have from him.
> BTW, Ahavas Yisroel applies also to Jews who are MORE frum then you, not just those who are LESS (and therefore make you feel more comfortable about yourself…)
I agree, except disagreeing with MORE or LESS (putting aside Chofetz Chaim who said – people say that in our time, one should be frum/frum/and then klug, but I say klug/klug and then frum). Chabad Alter Rebbe once went down to his son’s apartment (future Rebbe, I presume) and saw him deep in learning while a baby left by the wife to be watched was crying. Rebbe reprimanded his son for not paying attention to the baby. Metaphorically, not paying attention to your brothers, to your own obligations, to Hashem’s world is not necessarily more observant. I learned sometimes with charedi type people and sometimes with “modern”. Yes, there are more rishonim quoted in charedi discussions, but there is way more in depth discussion of the sugya in the “modern” shiur, where participants include top engineers/doctors/college professors – both by an occasional Aristotle or Josephus quote, but also by applying their seichel. It would laughable to consider first group frummer than the second.
YYA > BTW, I live here and pay taxes here, and have had missiles shot near my house here… My father-in-law served with distinction in the Golani Brigade. The armchair Zionist big talkers in America don’t trouble me…
Kol hakavod. So, you should go around and demonstrate to people that being in the Army can get tem such a hoshuve son-in-law!
YYA > the fine yungeleit in Lakewod, at least those I know (some are mishpacha), DO NOT have any such attitude חס ושלום לא תהא כזאת בישראל. They have better middos and better things to do with their time.
Congrats on mishpoha. I also have good friends and teachers from there. But there are others too. I was discussing someone with a Lwood person (ltoeles) and started mentioning, admiring that that person was at YU (at a top shiur by a R’Y) and then in Lakewood and now in another place – really very broad horizons. I could not finish my sentence though as the response came “YU is not a problem for him”. I frankly presume that the speaker would not be shining at that top YU shiur, but I don’t think he understands it.
YYA > The Barak Court jumped on the opportunity, and the situation has deteriorated more and more ever since. There is now zero possibility of any minimally ‘kosher’ Army service, until a new legal framework is created for gender segregated units.
This is a reasonable position and this would be a more honorable public stance: here are our conditions. Draft rules for such units. Come with a proposal. This is so basic going back to 2.5 tribes asking to stay on the other side of Jordan – show that you are part of the solution, not the problem. I would not be surprised that such shitah exists, it just does not get to the public.
AAQ – “I agree, except disagreeing with MORE or LESS (putting aside Chofetz Chaim who said – people say that in our time, one should be frum/frum/and then klug, but I say klug/klug and then frum).”
I wasn’t making a value judgment on who is truly more frum, just noting that people in general (myself included) have more difficulty liking people who’s superior conduct makes them feel less comfortable with their own ruchniyus. That’s human nature. I used the term ‘frum’ but what I really meant and should have said is ‘ehrlich’. ‘Frum’ is usually understood in terms of measurable and visible things. “Ehrlichkeit’ is about pnimiyus, and only Hashem really knows.
‘Klug’, in the sense you refer to, is a metric unto itself. It is entirely possible for someone to be genuinely frum, and even ehrlich, without being very bright… It’s also possible to be very clever, even ‘religiously’, but not ehrlich…
“Chabad Alter Rebbe once went down to his son’s apartment (future Rebbe, I presume) and saw him deep in learning while a baby left by the wife to be watched was crying. Rebbe reprimanded his son for not paying attention to the baby.”
The young father in the story was Rebbe Dov Ber, the second (‘Mitteler’) Rebbe of Chabad. The way this is usually understood is that he was so intensely focused that he literally didn’t hear the baby. He wasn’t indifferent to his child’s cries. (This isn’t far-fetched, Both Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadiah Yosef zt”l were filmed on video deep in learning and completely oblivious to noisy groups of people who entered the room with flashing cameras etc., until they finished whatever it is they were focused on.) The Baal HaTanya, who did hear the baby despite his own awe inspiring level of focus, taught him that a Tzaddik needs to reach a level that no amount of deveykus and concentration can stop him from feeling the pain of a Yid in distress…
“Metaphorically, not paying attention to your brothers, to your own obligations, to Hashem’s world is not necessarily more observant.”
Our own obligations, to ourselves and to our brothers, need to be defined by the Torah. If someone (for example) doesn’t go to the army because his Rebbe holds that is not good for him, then he is DOING his obligation, not IGNORING it. If you or others hold of a different system, that doesn’t make HIM not ‘ehrlich’ within his system. You bring up frequently ‘paying attention to Hashem’s world’. This is an interesting subject, but you are using this idea not in the traditional understanding of the term. You seem to refer to various phenomena (‘Modernity’ etc. and all that entails) as ‘Hashem’s world’, when they really are the world of בעלי בחירה who use their בחירה badly… This is like those who saw (for example) Zionism and its founders as a Divine phenomenon because some good things came of it. On a deeper level, everyone is a שליח of Hashem’s Providence, whether they like it or not. Without Haman and Achashverosh we wouldn’t have Purim. Without Pharaoh we wouldn’t have Pesach. But we wouldn’t go to Haman or Pharaoh to learn about Ratzon Hashem… We would go to Moshe Rabbeinu or Mordechai. Fast forward, there is no question that Herzl was a tool in Hashem’s Plan. So was Marx. So was Hitler for that matter… But despite them indisputably being part of Hashem’s world, we don’t look to them for guidance… We look to the Torah and the teachers of Torah. This also has nothing to do with being ‘observant’, except maybe being literally ‘observant’ of what is going on…
“I learned sometimes with charedi type people and sometimes with “modern”. Yes, there are more rishonim quoted in charedi discussions, but there is way more in depth discussion of the sugya in the “modern” shiur, where participants include top engineers/doctors/college professors – both by an occasional Aristotle or Josephus quote, but also by applying their seichel.”
There are different calibers and qualities of sechel, both among doctors/professors and among kollel yungeleit… Anecdotal experience with a non-representative sample doesn’t constitute proof. Ask a professor to do a comprehensive statistically sound comparative study… There is also a difference between a ‘deeper’ understanding of a sugya and a ‘flashier/more exciting’ understanding. Why would quoting Aristotle or Josephus add ‘depth’ to a discussion of Gemara? That would only add ‘flair’ among people who value secular sources more than Torah itself. This is also ignoring the issue of who has true pshat in the sugya and who does not. Rishonim dedicated their lives to toiling in Torah and living Torah. So, it follows, their opinion is more valued than that of Aristotle…
“It would laughable to consider first group frummer than the second.”
What does any of this have to do with ‘frum’?
“I was discussing someone with a Lwood person (ltoeles) and started mentioning, admiring that that person was at YU (at a top shiur by a R’Y) and then in Lakewood and now in another place – really very broad horizons. I could not finish my sentence though as the response came “YU is not a problem for him”. I frankly presume that the speaker would not be shining at that top YU shiur, but I don’t think he understands it.”
I don’t know what that proves. I know closely two choshuv Yidden who were genuine Talmidim of Reb Yoshe Bar Soloveitchik z”l. One of them is a prominent MO Rav, the other is a family member of mine, a learned and ehrlich person, but not a Rav. They were chavrusas back in the day in RIETS. When I say ‘talmidim’, I mean that they actually asked Reb Yoshe Ber for guidance in life and followed it, whether convenient for them or not. Both of them are exceptionally ehrlich people. The one who is a Rav resigned from a very lucrative MO congregation because they wanted to institute a ‘women’s prayer group’ and other such deviations. How many people went through YU and did not come out with such fortitude? IMHO, it is their personal kesher with Reb Yoshe Ber that built them into what they are. On the other hand, there are people who cruise through the ‘right’ places with the ‘right’ Roshei Yeshiva etc., but they never really were mekabel anything… And of course many cruised through YU and לכתחילה didn’t look for anything. But these two did. (I’m not saying no one else did, but these two I know did.) This is what Daas Torah/Emunas Chachomim really means. When someone defers to someone bigger than him ברוחניות, Hashem helps him grow. It’s a matter of humility and sincerity, that begets סייעתא דשמיא.
WRT why, for example, Sarah Shenirer and not the Chafetz Chaim started Beis Yaakov, there is a concept that each נשמה has a שליחות in this world that no one else can accomplish, even someone bigger. We find in the Gemara תענית כד that לא מצית למיעבד כעובדא דאבא אומנא. See ליקוטי מוהר״ן סימן לד for example, although this isn’t exclusively a Chassidish concept by any means. That isn’t a חיסרון in the Chafetz Chaim ח״ו, but the initiative had to come from the one who was zocheh to it.
With that I will sign off for now. I won’t have time next week to post. Take care and good Shabbos.
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