@ZSK:
Yes, denigration. No, I did not denigrate any particular individual. I simply noted the Torah-based fact from the greatest Torah sages of the past century that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy.
You claim that I “have never substantially answered anything I have said in rebuttal to you, ever.” Perhaps you could clarify how you came to that odd conclusion.
But, no, those saintly sages’ words have never been “torn apart, debunked” and whatever other rhetoric you want to use. The indisputable Torah fact is, as mentioned above, that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy. What that connotes of those who are fooled by it is a separate matter, and you can get into the Raavad and tinok sheNishba and whatever else you want to attempt to possibly defend them. But the ideology and belief is simply a non-starter. Period.
So, it is nonsensical to insist on demanding respect for those who believe and/or promulgate idolatry and heresy when they are instead supposed to be doing so for, LiHavdil, only Torah. Hashem knows what is in everyone’s hearts and he surely loves all His children who seek to connect to him as they were taught by their rabbis. But if they were taught lies and heresy and idolatry as the basis for their beliefs, then those are obviously non-starters as opposed to LiHavdil someone who believes in only Torah who therefore is obviously far more worthy of respect than the ones you still insist on being granted respect.
yankel berel:
That doesn’t seem like a contradiction; you’re welcome to quote the paragraph to which you are referring, if you’d like, but I don’t know that it really matters. Assuming your quote is correct, there is still a very, very big difference between this group of minim who are mesisim uMedichim on the largest imaginable scale (the Zionists of course) versus a “mere” rasha (not a min, but a rasha).
For example, if a rasha builds some mansion – and nobody ever even heard of this rasha – then there doesn’t seem to be any concern that his rishus will be validated by his palace going to a tzaddik. Even if they did hear of him, people buy and sell houses all the time and almost nobody cares who originally built his house unless there is some prestige or other gain from that. Whereas, if the Zionist State were to be the basis for the geulah (which is impossible, of course, but in theory, if it were), then it would clearly cast a positive light on that idolatry and heresy (which it factually is according to the Torah).
There are also infinite cheshbonos that Hashem could have in arranging it that way for the tzaddik to get that house. For example, on an individual level, rewarding the rasha in this world rather than in the next while at the same time reusing the rasha’s efforts to reward the tzaddik. But none of that is relevant to Zionism and its “State” which – unlike a mansion which is inherently harmless – have shmaded (and continues to shmad) at least three generations of Jews there.
Regardless of the various reasons there could be to explain the Rambam (and, again, I don’t think it’s a contradiction, in my very humble opinion), nonetheless, the Brisker Rav surely knew that Rambam at least as well as anyone today, and he still stated exactly what he did due to Chazal’s dictum that Hashem causes zechus to come from zakai, and the opposite from the opposite.
(The Satmar Rav actually went further and drew a kal vaChomer from min sheKasav Sefer Torah that it must be burned. If we need to go that far to ensure a min’s name is not relatively well-known, then surely Hashem will ensure that nothing (significant?) – he was referring to infrastructure, if memory serves – from the Zionists will remain when Moshiach comes.)
Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).