Matzav article about Golus and Eretz Yisrael

Also just to gild the lilly- would you have thought that a liar, adulterer, cheater, menuval, questionable business ethics….(the list is very long) could be the vehicle Hashem uses to bring a yeshuah for Am Yisrael?
We now have 2 examples how a menuval can save the Jews from the Persians. If God chooses to use a menuval to inspire kibutz goliyos you will have hekpidos on Him? Hashem can raise a leader like Moshe or a leader like DBG. You can disagree with God and you can fight history, good luck with that. hashem can redeem us in any way he chooses He gets to be מחשב את הקץ. Not us. Who knows if this is the Geula or not? Time will tell. Just because it does not unfold according to the way we thought it would does not disqualify the experience.

I would even go a step further- Denying God CAN bend the rules is much closer to heresy than believing He CAN choose Hertzl or DBG to bring redemption.
(notice I wrote “can” and not “did” for that only time will tell.)

Joseph,

I don’t despise charedim but also don’t believe their leaders are always the infallible “popes” you claim they are. As demonstrated by the need to blame the Holocaust on Zionism, despite to the inconvenient fact that their leadership discouraged leaving Europe until it was too late to do so.

@HaKatan: Denigration? Go look in the mirror. You are guilty of that more than anyone here.

You and your ilk should take back every single horrible thing you have said about the RZ and MO communities over the years. And again, I will note you have never substantially answered anything I have said in rebuttal to you, ever. You instead either don’t respond or continue to quote the same Rabbonim and repeat the same slander and misinformation, even when it has been called out, taken apart, questioned and utterly debunked.

@UJM: Joseph, don’t play innocent. You know as well as I do that you think the RZ community believes that DBG and TH were Moshaich, which is false.

@Non Political:
It’s also not good form to constantly call the RZ community heretics and project what you think the RZ community believes without even attempting to find out what those beliefs are.

Re hagiographies, nice red herring, but I’ll bite. If you think hagiographies are reverance rather than deification or something slightly less worse, Chassidishe Rebbelach and Roshei Yeshiva being attributed the sort of divine spirit Christians claim their saints have, and you have no problem with that, you’re being obtuse. On top of that, hagiographies give wrong impressions of real lives, which are often more inspirational than claims like “Rashi knew all of Chumash by heart at age 5”. But that isn’t my point and it never was. My point is that the above behavior combined with Rabbonim ruling and controlling their followers by edicts and bad actors (and there is no way you will convince me that Askanim are good for the community) rather than through an actual Bais Din with Takanos duly issued per the prescribed process in the Rambam, Mishna and Bavli does actually replace the Torah with something else. And I will repeat that this was in direct response to HaKatan once again accusing me of heresy, which is so far from the truth it is ridiculous.

As as side point: Regarding Rav Aharon Feldman in particular (who wasn’t even on the radar in my comment since he isn’t part of the Charedi establishment in Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim), I’m very well acquainted with his extended family and his beliefs reflect living in Bnei Brak for many years, as opposed to the rest of his family that have far more nuanced beliefs, which I have first hand knowledge of. And that is with all due respect to him as the Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisrael, et cetera.

Re Gezeros, Takanos and Pesakim regarding the Army and the State, okay, I’ll play ball. If a recognized local Beis Din had gotten up in 1947-1948 and duly issued a Gezera, Takana or Pesak that it is prohibited to serve in the army or have anything to do with the State for xyz Halachic reason, that would be one thing. There would be clear grounds avoid contact with the state and a justification for such. That has not happened. To the best of my knowledge, no Beis Din with any sort of binding authority has done any such thing (remember, binding authority is either through a local court or a national court, the latter of which has not existed since the Bavli, if not earlier). There have been proclamations and statements by Rabbonim as well as Seforim written about the subject. Those are not Takanos, Gezeros or Pesakim. They aren’t binding. Therefore, there is no excuse for avoiding the IDF beyond not trusting Chilonim, which while totally understandable (I’m not thrilled about my kids serving in the army in the distant future, especially together with Chilonim, and that is putting it extremely mildly) is still not a good enough excuse to avoid service at all costs, especially considering the efforts the IDF actually does take to ensure that Charedim can maintain their lifestyle within reason.

None of you have to like my opinion and that’s fine. However, I demand the same respect for the RZ community that the Charedi community demands; I insist on it and will accept nothing less. These anti-RZ and Israel threads are quite frankly unacceptable.

GadolHadofi:
I am not “Joseph”, so I don’t know why you chose to use that name to seemingly refer to my post.
See the piece by Rav Hutner Zatzal in Jewish Observer (archives) from the late ’70s, if memory serves.
We do not believe in any human’s infallibility, but, again, repeating that Zionist canard against gedolim is disgusting.

Relevant to BB as well:
The Chazon Ish noted that an apikores nowadays is one who either celebrates the Zionist independence day or blames the gedolim for the deaths of Jews in Europe. You can ask your LOR what the Chazon Ish meant by that given that you feel you know the history and Torah better than the Chazon Ish and the others.

@Katan

@BB

re a menuval being used for a yeshu’a

have a look in rambam hakdama le mishnayot where he writes that God will help a rasha to build a huge palace in order that a tsadiq will years later be able to rest in its shade

and finishes the rambam , that is the pshat in the pasuk ‘yachin rasha ,ve tsadiq yilbash’.
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so according to rambam it is possible that a tsadiq would benefit from the menuval ,

and moreover , said menuval receives his siyata dishmaya in the merit of the tsadiq
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@ZSK:
Yes, denigration. No, I did not denigrate any particular individual. I simply noted the Torah-based fact from the greatest Torah sages of the past century that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy.

You claim that I “have never substantially answered anything I have said in rebuttal to you, ever.” Perhaps you could clarify how you came to that odd conclusion.

But, no, those saintly sages’ words have never been “torn apart, debunked” and whatever other rhetoric you want to use. The indisputable Torah fact is, as mentioned above, that “Religious Zionism” is beyond the pale, that it is both idolatry and heresy. What that connotes of those who are fooled by it is a separate matter, and you can get into the Raavad and tinok sheNishba and whatever else you want to attempt to possibly defend them. But the ideology and belief is simply a non-starter. Period.

So, it is nonsensical to insist on demanding respect for those who believe and/or promulgate idolatry and heresy when they are instead supposed to be doing so for, LiHavdil, only Torah. Hashem knows what is in everyone’s hearts and he surely loves all His children who seek to connect to him as they were taught by their rabbis. But if they were taught lies and heresy and idolatry as the basis for their beliefs, then those are obviously non-starters as opposed to LiHavdil someone who believes in only Torah who therefore is obviously far more worthy of respect than the ones you still insist on being granted respect.

yankel berel:
That doesn’t seem like a contradiction; you’re welcome to quote the paragraph to which you are referring, if you’d like, but I don’t know that it really matters. Assuming your quote is correct, there is still a very, very big difference between this group of minim who are mesisim uMedichim on the largest imaginable scale (the Zionists of course) versus a “mere” rasha (not a min, but a rasha).

For example, if a rasha builds some mansion – and nobody ever even heard of this rasha – then there doesn’t seem to be any concern that his rishus will be validated by his palace going to a tzaddik. Even if they did hear of him, people buy and sell houses all the time and almost nobody cares who originally built his house unless there is some prestige or other gain from that. Whereas, if the Zionist State were to be the basis for the geulah (which is impossible, of course, but in theory, if it were), then it would clearly cast a positive light on that idolatry and heresy (which it factually is according to the Torah).

There are also infinite cheshbonos that Hashem could have in arranging it that way for the tzaddik to get that house. For example, on an individual level, rewarding the rasha in this world rather than in the next while at the same time reusing the rasha’s efforts to reward the tzaddik. But none of that is relevant to Zionism and its “State” which – unlike a mansion which is inherently harmless – have shmaded (and continues to shmad) at least three generations of Jews there.

Regardless of the various reasons there could be to explain the Rambam (and, again, I don’t think it’s a contradiction, in my very humble opinion), nonetheless, the Brisker Rav surely knew that Rambam at least as well as anyone today, and he still stated exactly what he did due to Chazal’s dictum that Hashem causes zechus to come from zakai, and the opposite from the opposite.

(The Satmar Rav actually went further and drew a kal vaChomer from min sheKasav Sefer Torah that it must be burned. If we need to go that far to ensure a min’s name is not relatively well-known, then surely Hashem will ensure that nothing (significant?) – he was referring to infrastructure, if memory serves – from the Zionists will remain when Moshiach comes.)

Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).

@HaKatan:

Nice job trying to pull DARVO (“deny, attack, reverse victim and offender” for the ignorant). You’re not getting away with it.

You are on record consistently and constantly denigrating the RZ community and flipping accusations of heresy. Your statements are literally all over this forum and you know it. If the mods allowed screenshots and links, I’d just post them all. They are even within this thread. Don’t deny it.

If you haven’t gotten my point or understood anything I’ve posted, how I’ve consistently questioned and taken apart the various things you – and somejewiknow – have posted to defend your position – in extreme detail, I might add, you’ll never get it. All your present response definitively demonstrates is just how unlettered, closed-minded and unwilling to be educated you are.

Improve your reading comprehension, go back through my reponses to you, learn something and bother to internalize what I’ve written.

Regardless, you are absolutely and indubitably wrong, there is no doubt about that.

Hakatan also G-d always uses imperfect people to do his work because imperfect people are real and usually have more kindness then others. Tzadik is not going to save the world. Lol tzadik means not exposed to things and always trying to be righteous and holy. That doesn’t make a good leader. A good leader is someone who is raw and a fighter. Lol

@ZSK

A strong emphasis on reverence certainly can be taken too far and cause people to idealize those who they revere. This is not deification and sainthood. Idealize and Idolize are not synonyms.

Next

I don’t understand why you think it’s reasonable that the Chareidi tzibur should, pitom, disregard the instructions of their Rebbeim and follow psakim of R”Z Rebbeim. I am speaking here about your contention that everyone should join the IDF. What does the absence of a formal, binding takana have to do with this?

@hakatan

katan :

Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).
—

katan would have us believe that man cannot make any effort for the final ge’oula ….

so how exactly did r akiva think that bar kochba was mashiach ?

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was r akiva so badly mistaken ?

or is rather katan badly mistaken ?

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@yankel-berel you wrote:

was r akiva so badly mistaken ?

or is rather katan badly mistaken ?

The answer has been well discussed in rishonim and achronim that, yes, R’ Akiva was “so badly mistaken” in what he did, leading to the greatest slaughter of Jews in our history, perhaps greater than the recent Holocaust. AND, this was as per R’ Akiva’s belief that moshiach had already arrived allowing him to breach the three oaths!

Don’t take my word for it, rather look at one of the recent Gedolim, Rav Henkin ztz”l:

In Rav Henkin’s Lev Ivra (Sh’eilos Hazman, pp. 95– 96), he cleverly turns part of this Zionist narrative on its head. “Even though the Gemara says the students of R. Akiva died in an epidemic, people are wont to say (מרלגא בפי העולם) that the students of R. Akiva were involved in the war of Bar Kochba.” He then brings the Gemara in Brachos (48b) that says, “The day those killed in Betar were buried, Chazal made the blessing of hatov v’hameitiv — hatov, that they did not putrefy, and hameitiv, that they were buried.” R. Henkin asks: Why would Chazal invoke a blessing of hatov v’hameitiv on a tragedy of such enormous proportions? His answer: The Bar Kochba war was a violation of the Jewish principle of non-violence. After the Bar Kochba war, the militant tendencies of even those who were in favor of fighting the Romans were “buried.” Usually, violence begets violence, war begets war. In this case, however, the Jews, even the militants, learned their lesson from the tragic results of the wars against the Romans, and their militant aspirations came to an end. They learned that they must keep the Three Oaths that Hashem made them swear. Their militant aspirations were finally put to rest. They also understood that the tragic fate that was meted out to them was because of their own behavior, not due to any injustice by Hashem. Thus, after Betar, they did not “putrefy,” meaning they did not develop putrid hashkafos, and they were “buried,” meaning the militant aspirations that caused the tragedy to begin with were put to rest. Therefore, they declared “hatov v’hameitiv.”

R. Henkin goes on to say that this attitude of eschewing military action lasted until the new revolutionary Jewish movements, such as the Bund and the like. But, he says, at least those revolutionaries did not want to consider themselves Jews. Unfortunately, the Zionists constantly declare themselves Jewish nationalists and “guardians of the [Jewish] people,” and have chosen to “be like all the nations and glorify wars.”

from Shapiro, Rabbi Yaakov. The Empty Wagon: Zionism’s Journey from Identity Crisis to Identity Theft

yankel berel:
Neither, as it happens; it is you who is “badly mistaken”.
Rabbi Akiva thought that Ben Koziva was the Mashiach, not that he needed to do any actions to cause Mashiach to come. That’s irrelevant to this.

And it is not I who would have you believe that Hashem alone will bring the gedulah rather than any human being causing it (other than via Torah and mitzvos, etc.); the Satmar Rav brings down that and much more in his sefarim. He writes extensively about this topic in both his chiddushim al haTorah as well as the other well-known sefarim that he wrote. The midrashim are there for you to read for yourself. It’s not some invention with which you could argue.

From AI (I didn’t check the references, but I know they’re there from the Satmar Rav’s quotes of them – please feel free to learn it on your own and see that):

One key source is Deuteronomy 30:2–10, which describes how the people will return to G-d, and then He will gather them from exile, circumcise their hearts, and bring them back to the Land. The emphasis is on spiritual return rather than physical or political action:
“And you shall return to the Lord your G-d… and the Lord your G-d shall return with your returnees… and He will gather you…”

This suggests that man’s role is teshuvah (repentance) and devotion, while G-d performs the actual redemption.
Midrashically, this is reinforced in Pesikta Rabbati 36, and in Shemot Rabbah 15:2:
גאולה ראשונה על ידי משה ואהרן, גאולה אחרונה אני עתיד לגאול אותם בעצמי
“The first redemption was through Moses and Aaron; the final redemption I will redeem them Myself.”

The implication is that human leadership and effort were central in the Exodus, but in the future, G-d alone will act, and man’s role will be primarily spiritual—serving Him with sincerity and faith.

This reflects a broader theme in rabbinic literature: that the ultimate geulah (redemption) will be more direct, more miraculous, and more intimate between G-d and the people of Israel.”

Could we stop calling people names. It’s a tactic to villify those who disagree
“cults often portray critics as enemies or traitors, which further isolates members from any potential support outside the group. Members who challenge the authority of the leader or the group may be punished, publicly humiliated, or shunned, and they may be portrayed as enemies of the group.
This not only deters others from questioning the leader but also reinforces the idea that anyone who disagrees with the cult is a threat.” Hmmm…..

Mathematically if all Torah Jews in Israel would just vote as well as the Torah jews of the world just come to Israel and vote they would be hands down the largest and ruling party. Hence in this day and age no matter what the original founders if the state had in mind it is the Torah Jews who refuse to vote who are solely responsible for the continued secular rule in the state of Israel. In this day and age all the complaints of all the anti Israel public are 100% self inflicted.

@HaKatan: Child, bless your heart (I mean that as the lowest form of insult). You’re utterly wrong, but it’s okay. I’ve spent enough time disproving your weak opinion and you know it.

@somejew – A spokesperson for Neturei Karta is not a valid source for anything. You know why.

@Non political – So Charedim can insist that the RZ Tzibbur follow their Rabbonim, their minhagim, etc.? No, two can play that game.

The reason for my requiring a court to issue a binding takana is simple: Charedim claim they are the only ones who truly represent Judaism. That’s a joke and utterly ridiculous, but that’s the claim. If that’s the case, then you need to show me you followed the Halachic process when deciding that Charedim should be except while everyone else isn’t. The most indisputable to do that is a Beis Din issuing a binding takana. Otherwisem, anything stated or published, whether proclamation or signed Pashkevillim – which everyone knows are an absolute joke and not worth the paper they are printed on – are simply written responsa to be considered but not binding in any manner since we have good reason for such, and there is no excuse for no service. It’s really that simple.

yankel berel:
You write that one who is trying to defend the Torah is “running away”. But I don’t see you commenting about how all the Zionist idolaters have run away. Why the double standard? They get to blaspheme the Torah and then, when they are answered, they don’t respond. But when someone defends the Torah and doesn’t respond to some nonsense follow-up, then you call that “running away”. But not when the Zionists don’t respond to a substantive follow-up.

It’s pathetic that people just post nonsense against G-d and His Torah and then don’t have the decency to respond that they were wrong and that their idol of Zionism distorted their minds.

@hakatan

@somejew

rambam is extremely clear about bar kochba :

we know that he is not mashiach because he was killed. [rambam hilch melachim]
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and not because he transgressed katan’s psak and i quote katan here :

“… Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).” [katan]

.

so this is a clear machloket between katan and rambam

katan says final geoulah comes from HKBH alone

rambam says final geoulah can come from man’s endeavors.
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. as clear as can be .
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@katan

@somejew

I do not accept satmar rav’s writing at face value on these topics , sorry about that.

not because I have a bone to pick with his fight against the Zionists

but because his whole approach was clearly not accepted by the majority of gdolei talimidei hahamim , whose collective opinion we follow

not only on the specifics of israeli elections did they disagree , but on the whole approach to the Z issue.

SR ‘used’ hazal to get us to sever any connection with the Z

but this is not at all times the proper understanding and context of those hazal.

as proven by rambams willingness to consider bar kochba’s candidacy for mashiach had he not died, notwithstanding his human actions to bring the geoula , opposed to SR assertions.
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am looking forward to any TO THE POINT rebuttals.
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@zsk

The source I brought was R. Henkin ztz”l. I’m not sure what he has to do with NK. Regardless, he’s a solid, well respected source. If you believe I misquoted him, please reference the correction.

@katan

You write that one who is trying to defend the Torah is “running away”. But I don’t see you commenting about how all the Zionist idolaters have run away. Why the double standard? They get to blaspheme the Torah and then, when they are answered, they don’t respond. But when someone defends the Torah and doesn’t respond to some nonsense follow-up, then you call that “running away”. But not when the Zionists don’t respond to a substantive follow-up.
[katan]
—

1] they are not idolaters in the halachik sense of the word

2] steipler assers to consider them as apikorsim

3] they say mistaken opinions but have not seen them ‘blaspheme’ the torah

4] their mistaken opinions are a reflection of their amharatsut and will never be taken by anyone as authentic haredi haskafa

5] whereas you and somejew self portray as representing authentic haredi hashkafa , which is not true.

6] reading your responses and stopping to think for a moment will show you that mostly you do not really respond – you just mindlessly repeat yourself like [sorry] a broken record

stop for a moment and reflect on your responses – how much and to what degree did you engage the question / argument of your opponent ?
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@ ZSK

You wrote: So Charedim can insist that the RZ Tzibbur follow their Rabbonim, their minhagim, etc.? No, two can play that game.

I never said anything of the sort. My position has consistently been that each community should follow it’s own Rebbeim. I’m not aware of any Chareidi Gedolim insisting that that all shailos should be directed to them.

You wrote that “two can play that game”. From my point of view it’s a dumb game. Why would anyone want to play? It’s not emes.

It is for the above reason that I don’t understand where you are coming from with the whole takana thing. No one today has the authority to issue at takana that would be binding on all communities.

I think you know this already.

As far as Chareidim believing they are the only ones who represent authentic Judaism. No doubt there are chareidim who think that way. There are also DL chevra who think this way. This is unfortunate and demonstrates a paucity in self awareness.

There are halachik implications to your comment- Do you really believe what you are saying or just trolling? If you do believe it is idolatry and heresy are you ready to act on your halachik chumros. We live in the 4 amos of halacha. heretics dont get buried in Jewish cemeteries. We dont sit shiva for them. If you need to think who is more deserving of shunning, a person who dies defending his brothers and sisters wearing a kippa and tzitziz vs NK who gives support to our enemies, then woe onto you.

There are halachos calling whole groups by the most vile terms as well. Do you live in the 4 amos of halacha or your hashkafik echo chamber.

If you are just bored then there are many leitznim trolls hanging out under bridges. I have funerals to go to today.

somejew has not answered the clear proof from maran bet yosef re pikuach nefesh docheh somejews [mistaken] understanding of the 3 shavu’ot.

all he did id quoting a mussar teaching in the name of hafets hayim written by a talmid of his.

in any other halachik discussion he would be laughed at

whenever someone would attempt to be doche a clear halachik proof from bet yosef

with a etsa tova from a talmid of hafets hayim

against the pashtut of maran bet yosef , tur and rambam based on clear gemarot

without any holek
.

why is the halachik question of multiple pikuach nefesh questions any different ?

somejew’s approach is highly irresponsible and deviates in an extreme way from centuries old hallowed halachik practise

practise based on clear halachk proof and reasoning

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somejew is being brainwashed by SR writings who mixes agada and drush with halacha.

have big suspicion that even SR himself did not consider his own writings as plain halacha

SR was on a holy mission

to convince as many people as possible to sever any connection with the Z porkei ol

anything usable for his holy mission , he would use

agada , drush , pseudo halacha , screaming , tears , [both of those last ones from his pure heart]

and he succeeded in great part to achieve many of his goals in that regard

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this approach which deviates from cold halachik reasoning as practised for many centuries is obvious

same with his copy and paste talmidim like somejew and katan

they cannot responsibly equate their reasoning with any of the tshuvot lehalacha of our gdolei haposkim

we are talking halacha here

clear halacha

clear pikuach nefesh

no one would or

ever did approach halachik pikuach nefesh hachamur questions in such an irresponsible cavalier and flippant way
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“Avoda zara” is a rhetorical phrase to scare the amaratzim. It holds no halachic weight. Nobody worships the flag.

So much fear mongering and abuse, religious abuse for and about having freedom of thought. You cannot control what people experience nor can you control the perspective a person gains from those experiences. Life does not align just with ideology it also aligns by truth. To punish people for not agreeing with your very aggressive viewpoint. How do you know your even correct? Cuz someone told you to feel that way. What if you simply. Don’t.