“M in Israel, if one uses stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.”
I don’t know anyone who would disagree with your first sentence, but I don’t see what that has to do with anything. Obviously if one is using stolen money it’s a problem. My understanding was that we were discussing money that was NOT stolen – i.e. if one is legitimately eligible for a program, should they avoid it so as to avoid Chillul Hashem, or because it is better not leave Kollel rather than be dependent on some form of “tzedakah”, etc. I said it “may be hashkafically inappropriate” — referring to the previous posts, not agreeing to the statement. I was saying that even one who feels there are Hashkafic problems can not legitimately say it is an “aveirah”.
mdd — I wasn’t addressing your arguments in my post, but as you seemed to feel I was, I will expand on my point. You may believe (as I in fact do believe) that government programs should be designed “(as Tsedoka) for people who fell on hard times and can not (temporarily, usually) put bread on the table.” However in the US today that is NOT the case. Most people who receive the more substantial forms of government assistance receive it for a lifetime. Many use it for numerous purposes other than putting bread on the table. If you believe otherwise you are out of touch with the reality of life in most “welfare” communities.
Judging the reality as such, if a legal program exists, with no particular “looking for work” requirements, and one qualifies 100%, I fail to see any ethical reason to avoid it, particularly if one is doing this in order to be involved in Limud Torah. Halacha does allow one to accept Tzedaka in order to learn (in fact in many situations supporting someone learning is actually one of the higher priorities in Tzedaka). I do not consider government funding an issue of tzedaka as the “givers” have no choice. I am just addressing the concept that seems to be recurring here that there is something innately wrong with “living of others” for the purpose of learning. I agree there is a problem with the nature of how such programs are set up, but fail to see how that incriminates one who participates in such a program.
In all honesty the only argument here that sounds reasonable based in Torah hashkafa as opposed to a WASP work ethic is the question of Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is a HUGE aveira, as you mentioned earlier. (One for which even Yom Hamisa does not bring forgiveness.) But as with all mitzvos/ aveiros, the definition of Chillul Hashem is not what makes sense to you, or even based on some random critical comment. There are Halachic definitions and parameters, and as many poskim permit participating in such programs, I find it hard to believe that this is an “obvious” application of the Halachos.
From a logical perspective, I have listened to numerous talk shows, read articles, etc. from people who are vehemently opposed to the welfare system,and have yet to hear anyone complain about those learning in Kollel. I worked in the secular workplace for many years, and unfortunately heard many complaints about Jews, but never that they were too poor or a drain on society! It seems to me that if there is an issue of Chillul Hashem in this situation, it is in the eyes of other Jews, unfortunately. (Again, the main inyun of Kiddush Hashem/ Chillul Hashem is in front of Jews, so it doesn’t change the issue, I’m just addressing previous posts.)