embarassed to use food stamps

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  • #594761

    kavod hatorah
    Participant

    Someone in kollel should they use food stamps?

    #738716

    eclipse
    Member

    If they NEED it,yes.If they don’t need it,no.

    #738717

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph?

    Please note this question has been asked many times. Refer to the (now sticky) post “how to find older threads”.

    #738718

    kookalibeer
    Member

    if you are in need for it- why not use it????

    i cant get the ppl who do things for other ppls conveneince-not their own.

    #738719

    mytake
    Member

    Please explain this question.

    What does being in kollel have to do with food stamps?

    #738720

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    YES, If you legitimately need them.

    The only reason to be embarrassed about using food stamps, or about taking ANY type of help, is if you are acting fraudulently.

    HaSh-m determines parnassa both for the gevir and for the ahni. No one should have gaiyva because he makes a lot, or boosha because he has little.

    HaSh-m can, and often does, reverse either matzav in the blink of an eye.

    #738721

    seeallsides
    Participant

    my only comfort in paying taxes, is that at least some money goes to kollel people – Hatzlocho

    #738722

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What is the alternative?

    #738723

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Should someone who is not in kollel and is at or below the level to recieve food stamps, should they use them or not?

    #738724

    kavod hatorah
    Participant

    mytake: Most people in kollel need extra money

    eclipse: if i need it because i am sitting and learning i should be embaressed?

    #738725

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Someone in kollel should they use food stamps?

    Your title and your question are two different topics.

    Are you asking about the propriety of using food stamps while in Kollel?

    Are you asking about a person who is in need and is embarrassed to use food stamps?

    Are you asking about whether or not a person should put himself in a position where he needs food stamps?

    Are you asking about whether a person should be embarrassed to use food stamps?

    Are you looking for advice because you or someone you know needs food stamps but is not using them out of embarrassment?

    Please clarify your question in a way that is consistent with the title.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    #738726

    apushatayid
    Participant

    MYTAKE: What does being in kollel have to do with food stamps?

    KAVOD HATORAH: Most people in kollel need extra money

    ME: SNAP -Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program – (official name food stamp program) is not a side job to bring in a few extra dollars. One qualifies for the benefits of this program, or does not, based on specific guidelines set by the government.

    #738727

    mytake
    Member

    kavod hatorah

    No kidding…My question was-why would your learning status have anything to do with whether or not you should take food stamps?

    If you need it, you need it. Kollel or not.

    #738728

    real-brisker
    Member

    If they *DESREVE THEM LEAGALY* then yes, and there is nothing to be embaressed of, its just like you are not embaressed to benefit from all other goverment services. Otherwise if you do not qualify for them legaly its probaly assur.

    #738729

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    If someone needs them,, he should go ahead and use them. But as Wolf said, to plan one’s life course in advance knowing he will use them does not seem right.

    To collect tzedaka if one needs it is fine. However, to plan lchatchila to make a living from tzedaka instead of some other profession is probably not what tzedaka is for.

    #738730

    bpt
    Participant

    Are you an able to work, but choose not to? Then you should be ashamed of yourself. You are taking $ from my pocket without asking

    Are you without a job because your industry fell out from under you, and the replacment job you have is not enough to cover your expensese? Or did an illness / family situation sneak up without warning? A humane society takes care of its less fortunate, and I’m glad my taxes are helping you. When you get back on your feet, you’ll be putting $ back into the pool to help the next in line

    #738731

    kavod hatorah
    Participant

    If the only way i could stay in kollel is to use them should i go get a job?{i am not in kollel but if i was}

    #738732

    real-brisker
    Member

    I dont think being in kollel is any different than being in college (in this respect)

    #738733

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid,

    If someone needs them,, he should go ahead and use them. But as Wolf said, to plan one’s life course in advance knowing he will use them does not seem right.

    I do have a minor disagreement with this. If a person had decided to learn in kollel for a period of time, or was in grad school, should he delay starting a family until finishing, or drop out before finishing to look for a job if he knew that he would need to apply for foodstamps to feed his new family?

    #738734

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Real-brisker,

    The difference is that (presumably) going to college increases your wage potential. You are more likely to contribute to society both in terms of your skills/job availability and tax money.

    A person who sits and learns in Kollel does not increase his earning potential or skill set in any way that is tangibly helpful to the American public.

    #738735

    kavod hatorah
    Participant

    Well said avram and brisker!! i also think that if you are doing a productive thing like learning in kollel or lehavdil in college you should take them if you need them and not be embarassed.

    #738736

    shlishi
    Member

    sjsinnyc

    going to kollel and learning Torah is much more tangibly helpful to the american public than paying taxes.

    #738737

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But as Wolf said

    For the record, I did not actually say that. I merely asked KH to clarify his question to be consistent with the title and posed that as a possibility.

    The Wolf

    #738738

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Shlishi,

    If that’s true (in a tangible sense), have a man learning in Kollel use his divrei Torah to buy food.

    I guess you don’t quite understand the word tangible.

    #738739

    Professional
    Member

    bpt, well said.

    you want to sit in kollel and I would pay for your grocery, without asking me?

    How about if I wanted to sit and learn and you go out and work to pay my expenses?

    #738740

    shlishi
    Member

    sjsinnyc

    what i mean is that the limud Torah brings more tangible benefits (ie protection) than the tax dollars does.

    #738741

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what i mean is that the limud Torah brings more tangible benefits (ie protection) than the tax dollars does.

    If the issue truly is one what brings more tangible benefits from tax dollars, perhaps the voters should decide whether they feel the benefit from kollel is worth it. After all, it’s their money…

    The Wolf

    #738742

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I know what you mean. But that isn’t tangible. That is on an esoteric plain. Please review the meaning to the word tangible.

    #738743

    Shrek
    Member

    a person should be embarrassed if he is doing something wrong…so if you think it is fine to feed your family with foodstamps while you are learning in kollel, seems to me there is no cause to be embarrassed.

    Personally, I don’t think it’s right to use foodstamps as a “plan” for long-term survival. Foodstamps should be used to get by when a person has no other choice, just like tzedakah.

    #738744

    real-brisker
    Member

    Sjs – Sure it brings to an income, he can become a Rov, Rebbi, Rosh Hayeshiva, Dayin, Shoel Umayshiv, Mashgiach (for hashgacha)… The list goes on…

    #738745

    cantoresq
    Member

    I don’t know if one should or need not be embarrassed to take food stamps or other forms of government relief. But I know for sure that I would be embarrassed, ashamed, depressed and mortified if I were ever, Heaven forbid, so reduced to the point of needing such things. Moreover, I would be feel like a horrible Jew; one who does not fulfill the basic injunctions of “b’zeiat apecha tochal lechem” and “Yegiah kapecha ki tochal, ashrecha v’tov lach.” I would do everything in my power to avoid taking it, and if, G-d forbid, there was no other choice, I would literally kill myself working to get out such a demoralizing inhuman rut. Other may feel differently, but that’s how I was raised.

    #738746

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I would literally kill myself working to get out such a demoralizing inhuman rut.

    Well said, but to nitpick, I think you meant “figuratively.” I don’t think you’d literally kill yourself since you could do the same by simply not getting food stamps and not eating.

    The Wolf

    #738747

    cantoresq:

    I don’t really want to put my two cents into the topic of this thread but I just wanted to point out that the first posuk you bring “b’zeias apecha tochal lechem” is not an injunction but a curse.

    If someone curses you to lose all your money do you feel obligated to go through out your money or if you lose all your money you would recognize that it was a result of the curse?

    The second pasuk can easily be ascribed to learning Torah as well:

    The gemarah in Brachos says “ashrecha- b’olam hazeh, v’tov lach- b’olam haba”

    So you will enjoy the results of doing yegiah in both worlds.

    The mishna in Pe’ah says “Eilu devarim she adam achol peiroseihem ba’olam hazeh v’hakeren kayemes lo l’olam habah” In other words, this is a list of things that a person will enjoy the benefits of in this world and the next.

    Yegia applies to Torah too. It’s hard work learning “zos haTorah, adam ki yamus ba’ohel- ein Torah miskayemes elah b’mi shemeimis atzmo aleha”

    While the list in Peah doesn’t bring ‘working for ones food’ as one of the things on the list it does say “v’Talmud Torah kneged Kulam”

    #738748

    mdd
    Member

    I think, it’s Chilul HaShem and causing eiva(animosity) to have a lot of Kollel people taking government programs.

    #738749

    I don’t. When was the last time you walked through Harlem and someone came up to you and said “You Jews, you can’t be so reliant on government programs you need to get jobs.” New York and New Jersey are both below the median for unemployment. We make up 10% of the state of NY at 2 million Jews strong. Of that 10% how many people would you say are in kollel all day and taking benefits from the government?

    #738750

    hanib
    Participant

    why is it a chillul Hashem? i’m not saying it is or isn’t, just trying to understand why it would be – if the gov’t has a program to help people who are not earning a certain amount of money? (And the kollel guy is not lying about any info. in order to receive the stamps!) Would it also be wrong if a genius used food stamps while studying intensively to discover a cure that would save hundreds of lives? If you say that food stamps should not be used in such a case and it’s better that the guy get a job as an accountant, then fine. But if not, doesn’t the world exist because of limud Torah, so in fact the guy in kollel is saving our life. on the other hand, long-term Kollel for most people is not practical nor advisable, but taking food stamps while one is learning, why isn’t that okay?

    #738752

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DH, I’ve had many people ask my why a high percentage of Lakewood is on government assistance and why they don’t get jobs. So I defend them to the best of my ability (even though I don’t agree with them), but people are usually left flumoxed.

    A healthy young man, married and often with a family, relying on government assistance? A healthy young man from a supposedly well brought up family? Expects society to take care of him for no reason?

    Like it or not, social services are a charity provided by the American public. People don’t like when segments of society (or even individuals) play the system by not getting jobs to qualify. Its unethical in most people’s minds, even if its legal.

    #738753

    cantoresq
    Member

    Oh monarch in Israel, you have your values, and I have mine.

    #738754

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    When was the last time you walked through Harlem and someone came up to you and said “You Jews, you can’t be so reliant on government programs you need to get jobs.”

    Better question, when was the last time you walked through Harlem?

    LOL.

    The issue has been brought up in the NYT and other papers regarding communities such as New Square & Kiryal Joel.

    #738755

    miritchka
    Member

    if you need it, use it.

    Someone once asked me if i was on a certain program to which i responded, my husband and i both get paid on the books so fortunately/unfortunately we are not eligible.

    It bothers me immensely that the middle class who works so hard are not eligible for any prgrams and struggle to pay bills (tuition, utilites, babysitters, credit cards…u name it). But those that have one income get gvt. help for rent, food, utilites, etc…

    Then again, b”h we dont have to rely on those programs…

    I dont know, something doesnt feel right about this whole issue. But if you are eligible, take advantage. Like a previous poster said, i’d like to know that my tax dollars are helping someone in kollel…

    #738756

    apushatayid
    Participant

    A girl my wife set up broke up with a guy because his long term plan (yes, he said this on the 3rd date) was to make sure he gets approved for HUD, SNAP, HEAP and Medicaid. Anything not covered by that, his wifes income would cover (income was a loosely translated term for your parents, my parents or his wifes job).

    #738758

    mdd
    Member

    Binahyeseirah, the general public(the Goyim) do not view Talmud Torah as so important. Therefore, your whole analogy with a genius looking for a cure does not apply.

    DHM, there are not 2 million Frum Jews in NYC.

    #738759

    shlishi
    Member

    A lot less frum Jews (percentage wise) in NY and in Lakewood take food stamps than blacks and less than hispanics across the entire USA. So if anything, it is a kiddush Hashem. Many whites, blacks and hispanics factor food stamps into their equation on how to make a living.

    #738760

    mw13
    Participant

    cantoresq:

    “I would be embarrassed, ashamed, depressed and mortified if I were ever, Heaven forbid, so reduced to the point of needing such things. Moreover, I would be feel like a horrible Jew; one who does not fulfill the basic injunctions of “b’zeiat apecha tochal lechem” and “Yegiah kapecha ki tochal, ashrecha v’tov lach.””

    Derech HaMelech:

    “I just wanted to point out that the first posuk you bring “b’zeias apecha tochal lechem” is not an injunction but a curse…

    The second pasuk can easily be ascribed to learning Torah as well…

    While the list in Peah doesn’t bring ‘working for ones food’ as one of the things on the list it does say “v’Talmud Torah kneged Kulam”

    cantoresq:

    “Oh monarch in Israel, you have your values, and I have mine.”

    This doesn’t have to do with your personal values as much as it has to do with your claim that the Torah commands a person to work. Derech HaMelech eloquently showed how this is simply not the case.

    Besides, why should somebody not take money they are legally entitled to? Especially (though not necessarily) if they are doing this in order to learn?

    #738761

    mdd
    Member

    Shlishi,do the Frum Yidden have a greater obligation than others to make a very good impression? There is such a thing as Chilul HaShem and issur to cause eiva. There is no such a thing as chilul Africa. If Goyim have legitemate ta’anos, it’s Chilul HaShem. And the Torah is very makpid on this.

    #738762

    mdd
    Member

    Just look in Ha’Arel in Yevomos, the ma’ase of Bnei Shaul.

    #738763

    shlishi
    Member

    but they DONT have legitimite taainos, if the law allows them to qualify for the benefits. do they have taainos on college students who qualify? nope. and like someone said, learning Torah is an education towards working as a teacher, rabbi, author, religious worker, etc. etc. (and even if that wouldnt have been the case, they would legally qualify and no one can have a legitimate taaina.)

    #738764

    cantoresq:

    As mw13 pointed out in my response to your post I was not weighing in on whether one should or shouldn’t use food stamps.

    SJSinNYC et al:

    I’m sure you are aware of the chilul Hashem being caused by our kiyum hamitzvah of Bris Milah. Many people feel we are acting in the same way we look at those who perform female circumcision and there have been times where they pushed to out-law it. Should we stop doing bris milah to prevent this chilul Hashem or do we do mitzvos even when the rest of the world looks down on us because of it?

    #738765

    anon for this
    Participant

    Derech Hamelech,

    Bris Milah is a mitzvas aseh, the mark of a Jewish man, and a mitzvah that Jews throughout history have risked their lives to fulfill. Somehow I don’t consider using food stamps to be a mitzvas aseh that marks Jews or a mitzvah we should risk our lives to fulfill. Your mileage may vary, of course.

    #738766

    cantoresq
    Member

    MW13, it’s a matter of values. And while my citations are subject to other interpretations, the point I wanted to make is that in G-d’s natural order, after Adam comitted original sin, is that one works to earn his living. DH’s comparisson of this issue of milah is simply ludicrous. The Torah comands milah. It does not require us to sponge of government benefits to learn Torah. Additionally, remember one crucial thing. If the Orthodox community wishes to be beholden to government in this fashion, it will, invariably have to make moral compromises. What would the frum velt do in an election wherein the candidate who support a increase in benefits also supports gay marriage, while the more traditional minded one wants to cut the fat? Whatever the community decies to do, it involved compromise of values. I prefer to avoid the devil’s bargain.

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