cherrybim:
“The great G’dolim of the past also wore grey clothing and hats.”
Again, this is not about what was done in the past. This is about what a black hat represents today.
yid.period:
“What you are referring to are people who are not orthodox.”
I completely disagree. Anybody who follows the Shulchan Orach is Orthodox in my book. And if they partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) they are also modern. Modern Orthodox, by definition, are the people who do both.
“What MO really means, and what YU’s slogan means, is people who are both Modern AND Orthodox”
Exactly. They keep the Shulchan Orach, so they are Orthodox. But they also try to have a good time in this world and get involved in the secular culture around them, so they are modern.
“MO believe not in the standalone value of madda, but in its potential to bring us closer to Hashem.”
Studying science is indeed a way to get closer to Hashem (although it obviously does not compare to learning Torah), but that’s not quite all the MO do. How does having a TV, for example, bring one closer to Hashem?
“That bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem means get a job,”
“bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem” is a curse, not a command. I don’t think it is wise to try to fulfill a curse.
“that being an ohr lagoyim means interacting with goyim,”
Interacting with the goyim, perhaps; but most definitely not to get influenced by them. That doesn’t help them, and it most certainly doesn’t help us. And yet that is the definition of modern; to be influenced by the times.
“and that studying biology can give one insight in to the niflaot of Hashem. But, all of this is because we (oh no, one of those!) believe this is the best way to serve Hashem; and this IS putting Hashem and torah first.”
Again, studying biology may very well bring one closer to Hashem, but what about having a TV? What about reading secular “entertainment” magazines? What about listening to secular music? How do these bring one closer to Hashem?
“The frum crowd in YU put in a 7 or 8 hours of learning, fit in around their studies in the afternoon. And you better believe they fight for it, and appreciate their torah. Now, what you were referring to are people who are not going about it in its proper form; however those exist in every circle–yeshivish chasidish etc. So to reiterate, proper MO does only live for torah, and it all revolves around Hashem”
IMHO, somebody who learns 7-8 hours a day and does not partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) is not modern. MO, as I said before, is by definition somebody who is affected by secular culture.
anon1m0us:
“MW13: You said “The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus.” Do you think this is true? Haven’t we seen countless examples where the opposite is true?”
Of course. But then, there are also people who call themselves MO and are a far cry from orthodox. But I was talking about what is considered the ideal philosophy in the MO and yehiva world, not what they actually do.
“In addition, what is wrong with Torah Umada?”
I did not say there is anything “wrong” with Torah u’Mada, only that a life spent pursuing Torah and something else can’t be compared to a life spent pursuing Torah alone.
“Most of our Tannim worked! Not one of our Taanim or Amorim which we hold dear, relied on government assistance”
“it was a boy from a “frum yeshivish” home that brought in a improper magazine to show to the other boys. It was the chassidsh man on Motza Shabbos who was behind “the wall” in Video Rama in BP.”
And I’m supposed to believe that no MO people do anything wrong?! Again, we are discussing the underlying ideals of the yeshivish and the modern, not what individuals who claim to associate themselves with the group may do.
“This whole concept of we hold Torah more important than other groups is disturbing to me.”
First of all, I never said any one group is better than all the others. This is only a comparison of the importance of Torah and Halacha in the Yeshiva and MO world. And you may find the results disturbing, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t true.
“Kovah Etim is not learning 100 blatts. It is learning that one line of chumish at 6:00 PM, every night no matter what. THAT is what shows one is machshiv torah and that is why K’vayah Eitem is asked and not how many blatt.”
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how learning one line of Chumash a day can be better than learning a hundred blatt.
“When I see people who work all day and show up early to learn and at night to learn. To me those are the pillars of the world!”
And are the people who live on far less so as to be able to learn all day not the pillars of the world?!