Black hats

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  • #751682
    mw13
    Participant

    cherrybim:

    “The great G’dolim of the past also wore grey clothing and hats.”

    Again, this is not about what was done in the past. This is about what a black hat represents today.

    yid.period:

    “What you are referring to are people who are not orthodox.”

    I completely disagree. Anybody who follows the Shulchan Orach is Orthodox in my book. And if they partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) they are also modern. Modern Orthodox, by definition, are the people who do both.

    “What MO really means, and what YU’s slogan means, is people who are both Modern AND Orthodox”

    Exactly. They keep the Shulchan Orach, so they are Orthodox. But they also try to have a good time in this world and get involved in the secular culture around them, so they are modern.

    “MO believe not in the standalone value of madda, but in its potential to bring us closer to Hashem.”

    Studying science is indeed a way to get closer to Hashem (although it obviously does not compare to learning Torah), but that’s not quite all the MO do. How does having a TV, for example, bring one closer to Hashem?

    “That bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem means get a job,”

    “bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem” is a curse, not a command. I don’t think it is wise to try to fulfill a curse.

    “that being an ohr lagoyim means interacting with goyim,”

    Interacting with the goyim, perhaps; but most definitely not to get influenced by them. That doesn’t help them, and it most certainly doesn’t help us. And yet that is the definition of modern; to be influenced by the times.

    “and that studying biology can give one insight in to the niflaot of Hashem. But, all of this is because we (oh no, one of those!) believe this is the best way to serve Hashem; and this IS putting Hashem and torah first.”

    Again, studying biology may very well bring one closer to Hashem, but what about having a TV? What about reading secular “entertainment” magazines? What about listening to secular music? How do these bring one closer to Hashem?

    “The frum crowd in YU put in a 7 or 8 hours of learning, fit in around their studies in the afternoon. And you better believe they fight for it, and appreciate their torah. Now, what you were referring to are people who are not going about it in its proper form; however those exist in every circle–yeshivish chasidish etc. So to reiterate, proper MO does only live for torah, and it all revolves around Hashem”

    IMHO, somebody who learns 7-8 hours a day and does not partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) is not modern. MO, as I said before, is by definition somebody who is affected by secular culture.

    anon1m0us:

    “MW13: You said “The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus.” Do you think this is true? Haven’t we seen countless examples where the opposite is true?”

    Of course. But then, there are also people who call themselves MO and are a far cry from orthodox. But I was talking about what is considered the ideal philosophy in the MO and yehiva world, not what they actually do.

    “In addition, what is wrong with Torah Umada?”

    I did not say there is anything “wrong” with Torah u’Mada, only that a life spent pursuing Torah and something else can’t be compared to a life spent pursuing Torah alone.

    “Most of our Tannim worked! Not one of our Taanim or Amorim which we hold dear, relied on government assistance”

    “it was a boy from a “frum yeshivish” home that brought in a improper magazine to show to the other boys. It was the chassidsh man on Motza Shabbos who was behind “the wall” in Video Rama in BP.”

    And I’m supposed to believe that no MO people do anything wrong?! Again, we are discussing the underlying ideals of the yeshivish and the modern, not what individuals who claim to associate themselves with the group may do.

    “This whole concept of we hold Torah more important than other groups is disturbing to me.”

    First of all, I never said any one group is better than all the others. This is only a comparison of the importance of Torah and Halacha in the Yeshiva and MO world. And you may find the results disturbing, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t true.

    “Kovah Etim is not learning 100 blatts. It is learning that one line of chumish at 6:00 PM, every night no matter what. THAT is what shows one is machshiv torah and that is why K’vayah Eitem is asked and not how many blatt.”

    I’m sorry, but I don’t see how learning one line of Chumash a day can be better than learning a hundred blatt.

    “When I see people who work all day and show up early to learn and at night to learn. To me those are the pillars of the world!”

    And are the people who live on far less so as to be able to learn all day not the pillars of the world?!

    #751683
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Grandmaster: I doubt it.

    tbt: yes, he is part of the yeshivish world yet can see the problems with that world. Why? Because it is a culture made up of human beings. Human beings have faults. Yes, the extent to which one tries to live according to Torah will result in self-betterment, but the fact remains that merely belonging to a group — no matter how noble that groups alleged mission statement — does not render the group or any one of its individual members automatically perfect. That is what anon1m0us is talking about and is what you fail to comprehend. By the way, you don’t do yourself or your credibility any favors when your strawmen are this blatant.

    #751684
    yid.period
    Member

    mw13:

    I’m sorry I cannot quote it for you verbatim, but the shulchan aruch says that one’s torah must be the ikar of one’s day.

    Someone can help me out here with exact marei mekomot but anyone who doesnt have kirvat hashem as his/her highest priority is not fulfilling the shulchan aruch.

    And again, why do you assume everyone who is “MO” has a tv? why do you assume everyone who has a tv has inappropriate channels on it?

    Why are you grouping all the people in YU together? Have you ever stepped foot on campus? You clearly don’t realize the spectrum of people you are talking about when you say “MO” which is why I’ve clarified, that those people you refer to are not “MO”. There are pleenty of kipah sruga, and even velvet kipa people who dont wear hats and would not qualify as yeshivish to you, but are very enviable in regards to their levels of yirah and kviat itim etc. And as thiiis topic developed, what we (as a subtopic underneath the OP) have been discussing, is that the black hat ie “yeshivish” indicator, is not a required accessory to be frum/ orthodox; and the lack of one in no way disqualifies someone from putting hashem first.

    And if you want to define MO as someone who is affected by secular culture as you’ve said before, then everyone in lakewood is MO as well, because everyone’s dress has adapted according to society’s acceptable standards. Even the coveted black hat developed from what was considered distinguished in Europe.

    Again, the point is black hat is not a requisite for putting Hashem first or being an excellent oved Hashem. Every orthodox movement puts hashem first be it bnei akiva, because if it doesnt then it isnt orthodox. And orthodox does NOT EQUAL yeshivish.

    There are different hashkafot that different people subscribe to and thats okay and we shouldnt look down on other people for that. MO believe there is potential in things besides for torah to come close to hashem, and act accordingly. And beyond that, there is a wide spectrum of people within every group, yeshiviish MO etc.

    #751686
    mw13
    Participant

    yid.period, I’m not sure if we’re communicating here. Let’s try this one more time:

    I believe that the yeshiva world believes that one should live only to serve Hashem, as opposed to the modern world that believes one of the things one should live for is to serve Hashem but that other things are OK also. Hope that cleared up what I’m trying to say.

    “And if you want to define MO as someone who is affected by secular culture as you’ve said before, then everyone in lakewood is MO as well, because everyone’s dress has adapted according to society’s acceptable standards. Even the coveted black hat developed from what was considered distinguished in Europe.”

    I’m sorry, but Europe is no longer “modern”. Being modern means being affected by today’s culture, not yesterday’s.

    #751687
    yid.period
    Member

    Mw13:

    We weren’t discussing the modern world we were discussing “MO,” modern orthodox, which fits into your categorization of the “Yeshiva world” but was excluded in previous posts; glad you’ve come around.

    And the point of bringing up Europe was to point out before, while you still were talking about Modern Orthodox, that your definition is skewed. It can’t be that anyone affected by modern culture would fall under the category of “Modern Orthodox.” According to your definition, everyone who was affected by European culture in that time period, and the subsequent gedolim, fell victim to “Modern” orthodoxy. Because the hat and suit and the even the tie fashion/trends start somewhere, and were at one point reflecting “modern” (that current time period’s) culture.

    Just curious, do you wear a tie for shabbos? When did that style of tie become popular?

    #751688
    mw13
    Participant

    “We weren’t discussing the modern world we were discussing “MO,” modern orthodox, which fits into your categorization of the “Yeshiva world” but was excluded in previous posts; glad you’ve come around.”

    Nope, we’re definitely not communicating. Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Also, when I said modern culture, I was particularly referring to the entertainment of the modern culture. Their movies, TV, music, etc. Nowhere did I say we should wear clothes completely free of secular influence.

    #751689
    yid.period
    Member

    MW13

    I apologize for not reading your mind. I am only capable of reading the words you write. At first you said Modern Orthodox, then changed it to modern culture; I read modern culture, and culture includes styles of dress, but your message is clear now… sort of

    I could get all gemara-ey on you and say there’s no way you really meant that because otherwise you would’ve answered that above when I first brought up styles of dress…. but I won’t.

    #751690
    Grandmaster
    Member

    mw13: Your comments are all well stated and on the button.

    #751692
    mw13
    Participant

    yid.period:

    No apology is necessary, things can get pretty confusing in a chat room like this.

    “I could get all gemara-ey on you and say there’s no way you really meant that because otherwise you would’ve answered that above when I first brought up styles of dress…. but I won’t.”

    Or it could just be that I didn’t have the time or patience to respond to everything you wrote… but then since you didn’t say that, I don’t need to answer you anyway 🙂

    Grandmaster:

    Only one compliment? Can I get one from some of your other usernames also? 🙂

    #751693
    msseeker
    Member

    I also complimented you but it was deleted by the mods, probably b/c it was uncomplimentary of others, to put it mildly. Anyway, good job.

    #751694
    mw13
    Participant

    Thanks, msseeker.

    #751695
    brotherofurs
    Participant

    i think when a man wears a black hat, he represents his views on certain halachot in Judaism. If someone wants a boy “who wears a black hat” they want someone with views she thinks “black hats” have.

    #751697
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    yid.period,

    And the point of bringing up Europe was to point out before, while you still were talking about Modern Orthodox, that your definition is skewed. It can’t be that anyone affected by modern culture would fall under the category of “Modern Orthodox.” According to your definition, everyone who was affected by European culture in that time period, and the subsequent gedolim, fell victim to “Modern” orthodoxy.

    Your comments would be quite correct if the surrounding environment’s moral fiber during the previous 200 years was steady state. Jews have indeed interacted with our surrounding environments throughout our history; however, the level of interaction tends to vary depending on the nature of that environment. In Mitzrayim, for example, where there was rampant debauchery, the Jewish community remained very distinct in language and dress. Up until around the 1950s, however, when the surrounding cultures dressed in a largely dignified, tznius fashion, Jews more readily adopted those styles of dress.

    I don’t think anyone here would argue that a black hat magically turns the wearer into a mentsch. It’s what’s inside the head and heart that matter. Symbols can be powerful, however, and to wear a hat which went out of style decades ago can be a powerful statement of both identification with a particular community and a rejection of negative cultural changes. This is not to say that those who don’t wear such hats are in the wrong. In fact, many communities rejected any American style hat at all, and continue to wear the hats that were worn in Europe.

    In other words, I hear you regarding the wrongness of passing judgement on others based on their headgear, but do you think that “Yeshivish” Jews should throw away their fedoras, and Chassidim should drop their streimels, just because other Jews don’t wear them?

    #751698

    Has there ever been a time in the past 3,000 years of Jewish history (prior to recent times) when there was ever a custom anywhere where Jews went to shul WITHOUT ANY hat or other head covering (more than just a yarmulka)?

    #751699
    yid.period
    Member

    Avram in MD:

    Chas Veshalom. I was merely demonstrating the point that “Modern Orthodox” cannot be defined as “influenced at all by secular society.”

    #751700
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Mr Kent, let’s leave the yarmulka and its relatively recent origins out of it please. Trust me, you don’t want to go there.

    #751701
    Grandmaster
    Member

    I took Kent’s comment to mean the recent innovation of not wearing a head-covering to shul is unprecedented.

    #751702
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I took it to mean that he thought both yarmulka’s and the doube-covering are of ancient provenance. I was just mentioning that neither are, at least among the hamon am. Of course now that the yarmulka is accepted by almost all of klal yisrael the history is totally academic. I was just mentioning the fact.

    #751703
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Mr Kent. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn’t. The thread at hand isn’t really focused on a hat for tefilla but rather wearing a hat at all times.

    #751704
    Grandmaster
    Member

    “Maybe there was”

    apy: When? And if there wasn’t, why was it discarded in recent times?

    #751705
    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘First of all, he was a big oheiv Yisroel whose “hostility” was never directed at people, but at anti-Torah ideals.’

    Religious Zionists would emphatically disagree with that statement.

    “so too does a woman/girl have a right to say she wants to marry someone who does wear a hat.”

    Yes, we have a right to be stupid. I, the committed Torah U’Maddah guy, did not expect to marry a woman whose rav learned at Lakewood. But she was a perfect match. And if you insist on externals, you are more likely to miss your perfect match.

    “I never saw a Rosh Yeshiva or other Rav without a tie.”

    Many in Israel go without ties. Its really hot there in the summer!

    “They do not have TVs”

    I don’t have a TV. Does that make me no longer Modern Orthodox?

    “Only because there was no government assistance available at the time. “

    ROTF!!!!! More evidence that Big Government is the Torah Way!!!

    #751706

    Charlie: Why are you name-calling those who want a hat and it’s identity (as even your “rav” felt was right), and not on those who don’t want to wear one, but want to change the girls??

    “Kol haposel, mimumo posel!”

    #751707
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    This thread is getting old and going no where. It highlights the diversity of Jews and different minhagim. There will always be people who think a black hat is what makes a person frum and holy and there will always be those who disagree with that. There are those who feel lakewood is the derech and those who feel lakewood is a bunch of lazy good for nothing mooches. There are those who think Moshe Rabaynu wore a shtriemel and their sect is going straight to Gan Eden while all others are “modern” and going to Gehanim. As such, there will always be girls who look at the hat and forgot about what is under it and those who could not care less.

    As long as each person understands that they are no better or worse than the other, I and G-d do not care what you wear or don’t wear. Wear the black hat, or don’t wear it. Wear the Shtraimel or don’t wear it. Wear the Kippah Serugah or don’t wear it. Sit and learn all day or go to work. Do whatever you feel is best for you and be happy with your choice but don’t try force down other people’s throat.

    I am sure Hashem will be happy with your choice as long as it leads to a better life and derech to hahsem.

    #751708
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Religious Zionists would emphatically disagree with that statement.

    They would be wrong, at the expense of being m’zalzel in the honor of a true adam gadol.

    “so too does a woman/girl have a right to say she wants to marry someone who does wear a hat.”

    Yes, we have a right to be stupid.

    If she wants only someone who wears a hat and doesn’t care about anything else, that’s stupid. If it’s one prerequisite, then it’s not so simple.As an example, if a chassidishe girl would insist on a boy who will wear a streimel, would that be stupid? It would be, in fact, stupid for her not to insist on that; she’d be going out of her cultural boundaries and just asking for trouble.

    Your example of you with your wife is unfair; we don’t know either of you.

    I don’t have a TV. Does that make me no longer Modern Orthodox?

    It makes you smart. 🙂

    #751709

    well levush shows just what type you are. The other day my father went to check out a boy and met up with him and shmoozed for a few minutes. What chuzpah the boy comes wihtout a hat. Mind you he was a yeshivah boy. That shows on a person that he has a lack of respect! The levush shows alot about a person!You should wear it and be proud of it!

    #751710
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Maybe there was”

    apy: When? And if there wasn’t, why was it discarded in recent times?

    I said maybe. The point I was making is that it was irrelevant to this discussion.

    #751713
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The other day my father went to check out a boy and met up with him and shmoozed for a few minutes. What chuzpah the boy comes wihtout a hat.”

    Was this a pre-arranged meeting? Just curious?

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