avi k- i no longer answer your posts. But for the record, i obviously didnt mean they lose the title of jew, rather that the right to identify with the nation and shmiras torah umitzvos go hand in hand. theyre worse then goyim; they even got you to believe in a false messiah, while christianity didnt succede.
mdd- why in the world are you in support of a govt./culture that has ceded from the followers of torah true judaism. im not saying to give it to turkey, but having a frei state isnt stam less then ideal, its misleading, both in name and practice. The chazon ish in his lifetime said that maybe the Chasam Sofer would be able to come up with an eitzah to fix the situation klal yisroel found themselves in. the fact that we havent discovered it doesnt make the medina good.