What's the argument against having a Madina?

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  • #601628

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Most people are fans of having a Madina in Eretz Yisrael I think. What’s the tzad to say its assur?

    #852359

    You mean because most people are MO?

    #852360

    gubbish
    Participant

    gemara in kesubos 111A says the pasukim- “hisbati eschem bnos yerushalayim…” refers to 3 shavuos. one of them is “shelo yaalu yisrael b’chomah.” rashi says “b’yad chazakah” meaning klal yisroel promised we wont forcibly take back eretz yisroel before mashiach comes. The reason a majority of Rabbonim do not find this to be problematic is because we did not “conquer” the land of israel, we diplomatically were given it. The Satmer Rebbe R’ Yoel was against the state of Israel. I’m not sure how exactly those who follow his view use this gemara.

    #852361

    not2bright
    Member

    I’m not taking any sides here but it could be that the anti-zionists read that Gemara in kesubos to mean that there can’t be any for e involved in taking it and perhaps by fighting any wars for our continued possession of it they would say that that is going against that Gemara. Also many may believe that everything has to be lsheim shamayim (which all agree to) and the state of Israel was probably not established lsheim shamayim because it was started by many anti-daati people (ex. Herzl ) and also because it may seem we just did it to be like the rest of the world and to make a name for ourselves which should not be our intentions because as long as we are in Galus we should remain quiet. Just some suggestions. If any more come to me I’ll be sure to post them.

    #852362

    Avi K
    Participant

    Gubbish, there are several more reasons (BTW, the one you cited was given by Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, who was an ardent supporter of Zionism) why we are not choshesh to the thre oaths:

    1. It is aggada not halacha and, in fact, does not appear in any of the major halachic codes.

    2. The Goyim violated their part of the bargain – not to persecute us “too much” – on several occasions. Thus if there was a deal it is off.

    3. The oaths were only for a limited period. Some say 1,000 years (if they started with the destruction of the Bayit Sheni that would be approximately the beginning of the Crusades – which were the first major violation by the Goyim). In nay case, the wondrous success of Zioinism shows that Hashem has released us from them and the time has come.

    #852363

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Please read Eim Habonim Semeichah for a chareidi perspective on this that is positive about Zionism and the creation of a Medinoh, written by Reb Yissochor Shlomo Teichtal HYD in the years and months before he was murdered by the Nazis YSh’vZ.

    #852364

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    That is not a Chareidi perspective. That is his perspective. If you want the general Chareidi perspective, read the Kraina D’igrisa.

    #852365

    Abelleh
    Participant

    I don’t mean the argument about establishing or not establishing a medina. That’s another story. Once the medina is established (which is now) what’s the argument for saying to not support it?

    #852366

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Are there only arguments against ESTABLISHING a Medina? I’ve heard a few of those, but I’ve never heard one against CONTINUING to have the Medina, and they’re obviously very different things.

    #852367

    Sigh. Here we go again.

    Go to the website of “jewsagainstzionism” (not to be confused with “jewsnotzionists”). Also go to the website of “natrina”. (Can’t post links here.)

    Plenty of seforim on the issue around. Specifically, “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh”. Then there are tens and tens if not hundreds of other gedolim who mentioned the reasons why a Jewish state is wrong in their seforim and droshos all throughout the years and countries. Too many to name.

    #852368

    Avi K
    Participant

    For seforim, there is an excellent sefer in English called “Torat Eretz Yisrael” by Rabbi David Samson. I also saw that “Kol HaTor” of Rabbi Hillel Shklover has been translated in English. In Hebrew there is “HaTekufa HaGedola” of Rav Menachem Kasher. There are also “Torat HaMedina” by Rav Goren and several books by Rav Aviner.

    Sorry, we don’t generally allow outside links.

    #852369

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K – How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh”?

    #852370

    Josh31
    Participant

    “How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh”? “

    Many, including me had their emunah (belief in HaShem) strengthened by the six day war victory. For them reading something that may weaken their emunah is probably prohibited.

    Likewise for someone not ready to learn kabbalah because of insufficient Nigleh (the revealed) Torah knowledge, the same reason applies.

    #852371

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Health: I read most of Al hageulah and parts of V’Yoel Moshe. My rebbi told me b’shem Rav Schachter that you can’t be a real zionist until you know both sefarim. Guess I’m not on the level to be a real Zionist yet.

    BTW, anyone who learns these sefarim for the first time will be shocked at the strength of the language. Remember that strong language to the point of hyperbole is standard in this kind of work and that certain statements have to be taken in the spirit in which they were made.

    #852372

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -“Many, including me had their emunah (belief in HaShem) strengthened by the six day war victory. For them reading something that may weaken their emunah is probably prohibited.”

    I really don’t get your post -why would your Emunah be weakened?

    Actually you are bringing up an interesting point. I don’t remember but they say a lot of Freye/Chilonim started believing in Hashem because of what happenned then. But by & far it didn’t last. If the Tzionim aren’t the Reshayim that I think they are, why wouldn’t such an impression last? How could they go back to “Koach V’ozem Yodi” after that? It’s beyond my comprehension!

    #852373

    Abelleh
    Participant

    The Ramban counts having a Medina as a mitzvah (mitvos shehaRambam Shechach — Mitzvah 4). There’s a machlokes whether it is a mitzvah or not. That probably means you should do it!!!

    #852374

    Health
    Participant

    Abelleh -“The Ramban counts having a Medina as a mitzvah (mitvos shehaRambam Shechach — Mitzvah 4). There’s a machlokes whether it is a mitzvah or not. That probably means you should do it!!!”

    Ok -kick the Tzionim out and start a Medina acc. to Halacha. Let’s see how far you get. I’m sure it’s easier to hand it over to the Turks -than to make a revolution!

    #852375

    gubbish
    Participant

    i was going to ask that… Is there any Halachic reason for a religious person not to assume a role of power? or is it just impractical and not plausible?

    #852377

    mdd
    Member

    Health, here you go again. Get it through your head: the Satmar and Brisk shittos are not the only ones on the topic, nor are they the majority either.

    #852378

    Josh31
    Participant

    Health, you have elevated anti-zionism into a religion. While the Miztvah of remembering what Amalek did is once a year, the Mitzvah of remembering what the “Zionists’ did is every day by you.

    This anti-zionism you preach is not going to bring a single Jew back to Torah and mitzvos. In fact any one involved in Kiruv knows not to say anything that may be construed to be anti-zionism.

    When the Jews were saved in 1967 the Pashut Emunah approach was to thank G-d for the deliverance; not to do deep philosophical calculations. The Gemara in Brachos is very clear that we must thank G-d for such salvations, and not do calculations about possible future negative impact.

    Unfortunately, human nature is that the emotional impact of deliverance wears off with time, unless a specific effort is done to keep the deliverance experience alive. Without the specific Mitzvos of Pesach and others, the impact of the Exodus would have worn off quickly.

    #852379

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -“This anti-zionism you preach is not going to bring a single Jew back to Torah and mitzvos. In fact any one involved in Kiruv knows not to say anything that may be construed to be anti-zionism.”

    News flash Josh -I don’t do Kiruv or work for a Kiruv org.

    I’m here to spread the light. And that is that Zionism is Treif!

    Comprende?

    #852380

    Health
    Participant

    mdd -“Health, here you go again. Get it through your head: the Satmar and Brisk shittos are not the only ones on the topic, nor are they the majority either.”

    Get it through your head -I’m not here in the CR to post your opinions. I’m here to post my opinions whether some people, all people or no people agree! Got it?

    #852381

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    “Bekisso,bekaaso,bekosso…..” health- you qualify for all three….

    #852382

    m in Israel
    Member

    Avi K — I am not commenting on the main question of the pros and cons of Zionism. But your comment of “In nay case, the wondrous success of Zioinism shows that Hashem has released us from them and the time has come” is hard to understand. The fact that something is successful doesn’t mean it’s right. There were many reshoim throughout history who enjoyed tremendous success, and many very evil empires that lasted for hundreds of years. In our world of hester ponim, the fact that Hashem allows someone or some group to succeed does not mean it is right!

    (In fact there were many events leading up to the rise of Hitler, yemach shmo, that could be called wondrous or miraculous. Obviously Hashem has his reasons for why things need to happen the way they do, but you cannot determine if something is good or bad based on how successful it is. Just to be clear, of course I am not comparing the Zionist movement to Nazis! I am just making a point that success, even “miraculous” success, is not an indication of anything.)

    #852383

    mdd
    Member

    Health, you got to first learn all the deyos, and then say things. It looks from your posts as if amost all Gedolim held like Satmar — it is not true.

    #852384

    Health
    Participant

    mdd -“Health, you got to first learn all the deyos, and then say things. It looks from your posts as if amost all Gedolim held like Satmar — it is not true.”

    I know all their Deyos -they keep repeating them a thousand times. My posts are my Deyos -so don’t read into things I didn’t say!

    #852385

    Health
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin -“”Bekisso,bekaaso,bekosso…..” health- you qualify for all three…”

    And I B’H use all these L’shem Shomayim to be Loichem against the Tzionim!

    #852386

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I don’t think I want to know the answer, but how do you use your money to fight the “Tzionim”?

    #852387

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Tp stick my two-cents in here and difuse some of the mudslinging:

    We can all agree that establishing the Medinah had its halachic issues in the first place. I don’t know enough of the political wrangling to judge, but “by force” can definitely NOT be ruled out – the Irgun and Haganah certainly gave the British a violent run for their money. Once that was done, we can say that defense of Israel can, and should, be construed as defense of the human beings inhabiting the land. True Zionism takes a hit by the fact that Theodore Herzl, father of modern Zionism, was willing to take land elsewhere to establish a “Jewish Homeland” and it did not have to be in Eretz Hakedosha. (FYI Eilat and Gaza ware NOT part of Eretz HaKedosha, while parts of Syria ARE!)

    Supporting, or joining, the government of a secular medinah that is in control of the Eretz HaKedosha falls into the same realm as supporting any government under which we live peaceably, inlcuding the USA, Canada, etc. It is just sad that Jews have left Judaism out of the equation when establishing a purpotedly Jewish country.

    #852389

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I don’t think I want to know the answer, but how do you use your money to fight the “Tzionim”?”

    By posting here. It costs money for the internet service plus electricity costs and wear & tear on the computer. 😉

    #852390

    Abelleh
    Participant

    My question was really now that the medina is established (which it definitely is), how can you say we SHOULDN’T support it?

    #852391

    Health
    Participant

    Abelleh -“My question was really now that the medina is established (which it definitely is), how can you say we SHOULDN’T support it? “

    Gedolim said you shouldn’t support it -that’s how!

    #852392

    Avi K
    Participant

    m, I think that if the Jewish people or even a portion of it (Rav Soloveichik held that if c”v the Jews in Israel go down everybody else will) received a miraculous salvation three times there is a chazaka that Hashem is with us. Even once is good thing for which we are required to be joyful and give thanks.

    What were the three?

    1. In 5708 the British and Americans warned Ben Gurion that if he declared a state the Arabs would overrun it in a matter of days. The Britrish even tried to help by training and providing the officers for Jordan’s Arab Legion. In fact, Israel came out with more territory than the partition plan gave it including western Yerushalayim.

    2. In 5727 everybody was expecting another Holocaust. There were plans to turn public parks into cemetaries. Eshkol broke down and cried during a radio speech. We regained the eastern part of Yerushalayim, Yehuda veShomron, Gaza (the fact that it was abandoned is another matter) and the vitally important Golan (after Rav Tzvi Yehuda’s prophetic Yom HaAtzmaut speech “Where is our Hevon? Where is our Shechem?”).

    3. In 5734, Syrian tanks were poised to break the Israeli line, after which they would have had a clear field to Haifa. For some reason, their commander got the notion that they were being outflanked and order a halt.

    Add to that, the fact that the new, poor state managed to absorb more immigrants than its pre-War of Independence population, albeit with problems but not the type that were predicted. Add to that the constant improvements in life here both materially and spiritually. If we can execute someone on a hazaka (for example thatt he person he struck is actually his father) how much more so should we give thanks for what we have (while davening and doing hishtadlut for more)?

    #852394

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Health: I was under the impression that the Gedolim did support it. If you think they don’t, could you list the reasons why they say not to?

    #852395

    writersoul
    Member

    Personally, whether I personally believe there should be a state is immaterial (it won’t change anything). What I do believe is that we need to stand behind the people of Eretz Yisrael and we can’t abandon them because they’re “Zionists” because they’re acheinu beis Yisrael. In my school we say Tehillim for Eretz Yisrael not because we’re Zionist but because we believe that our tefilos help keep the people of Israel safe. Health, did you cry less about the Fogel family because they were Zionists? The boys at Merkaz Harav?

    #852396

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi writersoul.

    Boom!

    Very clear and well said!

    #852397

    Health
    Participant

    Abelleh -“If you think they don’t, could you list the reasons why they say not to?”

    How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh” and you will know the reasons.

    #852399

    mamashtakah
    Member

    How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh” and you will know the reasons.

    For those who are not Satmar and do not hold of their shitos – can you give a better answer?

    #852400

    Health
    Participant

    writersoul- “Health, did you cry less about the Fogel family because they were Zionists? The boys at Merkaz Harav?”

    A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!

    #852401

    “A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!”

    I second that – as applied to the old-day tzionim. The modern-day leaders of the State of Israel are not the same. They’re bad, evil and all that – but they’re not comparable to Weizmann, Ben Gurion etc.

    Nowadays the real Tzionim we must fight against are the fringe Dati Leumi ones who seek to enflame the entire world by going on Har HaBayis and destroying the Islamic sites there. Those who want to build the 3rd beis hamikdosh with their own hands. Those who loudly shout from the rooftops that the Arabs should be thrown out of all of E”Y (incl Yehuda/Shomron). These people, the “Machon HaMikdash” type, the “Kahane” type, the “State of Judea” clan – they are the real Tzionim.

    There is no point in fighting the state – it exists and won’t disappear. (Which doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t speak out loud and clear when the medinah commits acts that endanger Jews throughout the world.)

    But the real danger nowadays lies in those who have completely distorted our beliefs, those for whom “love of the land” has become a militaristic obsession with territory that outranks anything else (such as Shabbos) – remember the settler ‘rabbis’ permitting people to use their phones on Shabbos to warn each other of IDF/Magav approaching to demolish outposts?

    edited

    #852402

    nevermind 🙂

    #852403

    optimusprime
    Member

    Health

    “A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!”

    Health I would never suspect you would stoop so low. You really think that the murder of innocent children is the victims fault because they hold by a legitimate Shitta that just happens to not be your own! It almost sounds like you blame a rape victim because she was wearing a short sleeve shirt! I really cannot believe you or your “Unhealthy” worldview.

    #852404

    YW Moderator-72
    Participant

    Health

    Member

    “A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!”

    … and with that he has squarely aligned himself with Mahmaoud’s Rebbi and the rest of the nk because as everyone knows the goyim LOVED the Jews throughout the time when we were exiled up until November 1947. They adored us. They held us in the highest esteem and hardly ever bothered us throughout the ages. When they did pester us – it was always against the Zionist element and not against the rest of the Yidden. Countries welcomed us with open arms and made us feel right at home…

    I for one am sick of the argument that the Zionist is the cause of the hatred that the goyim have for Jews. I guess the concept of esav hates Yaakov means nothing to the health and the rest of his ilk. face it health and the rest of the nk – esav hates us. They hate: chareidim, Litvish, MO, non-observant, Zionists and anti-zionists. They don’t care about our style of dress or type of head covering we wear.

    The entire portion of the bloodshed lies with those that are committing the terrorist attacks against the Yidden and for you to call yourself a G-d fearing and righteous Jew and blame the death of arab killed Jews on Jews is reprehensible.

    Go ahead and post your rebuttal – I won’t read it and I encourage all others of the fine and wonderful posters here to not read it and to stop responding to your nonsense.

    #852405

    Abelleh
    Participant

    YW Moderator-72: I totally agree.

    But Health, you still never made an argument; the Stamir position is very hard to understand in light of the Balfour Declaration and the UN’s Decision to grant the Jews a homeland in 1948 (the Or Sameach has a letter about this; I heard this quoted by Rav Schachter, though I don’t recall were he said it could be found). In fact, during the Aggudah meeting in the 40’s when the Gedolim were discussing whether to make a state, Satmir didn’t even show up because they knew that they were (to use Rav Schachter’s term) “a minority she’bi’minority” and they wouldn’t even get the floor.

    If you want to hear Rav Schachter go through all the opinions (Mercaz, Stamir, etc.) you can listen to his shiur called “Land for Peace” on YU Torah (I’ll post the link if I get permission)

    #852406

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “What’s the argument against having a Madina?”

    We talking about the funky cold madina?

    #852409

    writersoul
    Member

    Health: “A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!”

    Oh. My. Go- um, Goodness.

    That goes for both Health and Chassidishe Gatesheader.

    What do you want to do now— give Israel to Iran? Oh, sure, they’ll welcome you with open arms.

    NOTHING can justify the cold-blooded murder of our own brothers and sisters— whether you approve of their political beliefs or not.

    This must be the kind of sinat chinam that keeps Moshiach from coming.

    BTGuy: Thanks! 🙂

    #852410

    Health
    Participant

    optimusprime -“Health I would never suspect you would stoop so low. You really think that the murder of innocent children is the victims fault because they hold by a legitimate Shitta that just happens to not be your own!”

    You see this is what happens when people like “writersoul” pull out emotions to further their political beliefs. You got all emotional and put words into my mouth which I never said. I never blamed the victims. I blamed the Tzionim. (Ya know the guys who started the Medina.) But when emotions are high -judgment is low! You actually were Choset B’kesharim!

    #852411

    Health
    Participant

    YW Moderator-72 -“… and with that he has squarely aligned himself with Mahmaoud’s Rebbi and the rest of the nk because as everyone knows the goyim LOVED the Jews throughout the time when we were exiled up until November 1947. They adored us. They held us in the highest esteem and hardly ever bothered us throughout the ages. When they did pester us – it was always against the Zionist element and not against the rest of the Yidden. Countries welcomed us with open arms and made us feel right at home…”

    First of all, I’m not NK or Satmar for that matter.

    “I for one am sick of the argument that the Zionist is the cause of the hatred that the goyim have for Jews. I guess the concept of esav hates Yaakov means nothing to the health and the rest of his ilk. face it health and the rest of the nk – esav hates us. They hate: chareidim, Litvish, MO, non-observant, Zionists and anti-zionists. They don’t care about our style of dress or type of head covering we wear.”

    You seem or deliberately forget that Esau hates Yaakov everywhere

    like here in the US. So how come here the Goyim aren’t trying to kill us everyday like in Israel? Perhaps the hatred is greater over there because of what the Tzionim did and are doing now?

    MODS – I must protest the double standard. Because of a few complaints -No post of mine with the slightest insult is put through. I have no problem with this. But this poster has been insulting me since I started posting here and you aren’t deleting the posts. Why the different treatment? Because he used to be a MOD?

    #852412

    Health
    Participant

    Abelleh -“But Health, you still never made an argument; the Stamir position is very hard to understand in light of the Balfour Declaration and the UN’s Decision to grant the Jews a homeland in 1948”

    For the second time I’m not Satmar, even though I agree with their position on the Medina. But you have to read a lot to understand their Shittos -try reading those two Seforim I mentioned.

    I’m sure you don’t mean it, but you are very ignorant when it comes to the history. There was a Balfour Declaration, but the antisemite British balked on implementing it. They just pulled out of Palestine without giving it to anyone. The Zionists at that time decided to establish a State in the vacuum. Whether they did it because they were scared of the arabs and that they might take over or they saw an opportunity or both -I don’t know. But starting a country on your own caused an extreme hatred from the Goyim, esp. the arabs.

    #852413

    Health
    Participant

    writersoul -“What do you want to do now— give Israel to Iran?”

    If you ever read any of my posts -you would know that I said the Turks should take over.

    “NOTHING can justify the cold-blooded murder of our own brothers and sisters— whether you approve of their political beliefs or not.”

    You started using recent terrorist attacks to push your political beliefs. This is an old tactic and only fools that want to be fooled -fall for this. Noone ever justified killing of innocents, no matter how you twist our words. All I did was blame the Tzionim along with the terrorists!

    “This must be the kind of sinat chinam that keeps Moshiach from coming.”

    You mean facts like people like you who keep twisting our words to make us look bad. Yes, this is typical Sinas Chinum.

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