REALIST–
Thank you for the kind words – flattery gets you everywhere.
I am perfectly fine with a moderator emailing you (and “yekke2” and “vochindik”) my rejected post. I stand by everything I said in it; I just don’t think it should be posted in a public forum for the reasons given.
vochindik–
1) Incorrect. The overwhelming majority of poskim who discuss intellectual property do NOT make a blanket prohibition against copying. And as I indicated above, nor is their a blanket heter to copy either.
That’s not what I said. Nobody said anything about a “blanket prohibition”. Rav Belsky explicitly allows copies to be made by the purchaser, both for backup purposes and for using on another device.
2) Correct. On an individual basis, with the rabbonim specifying when it expires. And this was based on hasagas gvul. Not geneiva (otherwise it would have been permanent, non-expiring.) And it didn’t apply to all works, unless the rabbonim gave the sefer a specific cherem. Furthermore, it applied a temporary prohibition only to *commercial* copying-to-sell, where obviously you are taking away business from the producer who would have otherwise sold it to the customers the copyer sold it to. Hasagas gvul. It did not apply to personal copying. (Obviously there was no personal single-copying feasible in those days.)
a) It was done on “an individual basis” whenever it was requested. A cherem (excommunication) is pretty serious – it shows how reprehensible rabonim thought copying someone else’s work was, regardless of what halachos it was or wasn’t based on.
b) “ And this was based on hasagas gvul. Not geneiva (otherwise it would have been permanent, non-expiring.)“
I’d like to hear this explained – I sure don’t get your logic.
c) “Furthermore, it applied a temporary prohibition only to *commercial* copying-to-sell, where obviously you are taking away business from the producer who would have otherwise sold it to the customers the copyer sold it to. Hasagas gvul. It did not apply to personal copying. (Obviously there was no personal single-copying feasible in those days.)“
This makes as much sense as saying “This temporary prohibition didn’t apply to photocopying”. Of course it didn’t apply to technology that didn’t exist in those days.
3. No it is not “genevia”. And very few of the poskim consider it halachic geneiva. They consider hasagas gvul.
If you look up the many frum sites that post this discussion, you’ll find genaiva and hasogas gvul the predominant issues.
Rav Moshe said it’s genaiva. Rav Belsky says it’s genaiva.
“vochindik” says “No, it’s not ‘genaiva'”. Period.
4. I explained above why dina dmalchusa is not relevant. So that only leaves hasagas gvul. And hasagas gvul ONLY is relevant if you caused a lost sale. If there was no intention of purchasing it (i.e. a $5,000 photo/video editing software), there is no hasagas gvul.
a) “I explained above why dina dmalchusa is not relevant.“
Rav Belsky told me that dina d’malchusa applies for laws that allow society to function and are for the benefit of society. Intellectual rights (patents, copyrights, trademarks) clearly fall with that realm. I have heard this explanation from others who know halacha as well, but they’re not rabonim. There are several explanations of dm”d that can be read online (with the authors noted), and they usually follow this explanation.
There may be those who disagree with this viewpoint – one of the write-ups I saw mentions a tosfos that says is much more limiting – but to simply blow it off is wrong.
“And if you want to “see it inside” from a halacha sefer, see Pischei Choshen, Geneivah, page 284.“
In the following page, poster “hello99”, who is much more knowledgeable on this issue, says that while the mekor you post does seem to show he is matir copying, a couple of pages earlier he quotes the Bais Yitzchok as saying it’s an issur gezel.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/heteirim-for-copying-and-giving-out-music/page/3
I don’t know who Rav Yaakov Shapiro is.
A couple of questions:
1) Is there a source where I can look up his heter?
2) Is he your posek?
3) Have you actually asked your rov questions about this? IIRC, Rav Feivel Cohen is someone you hold of – any idea as to his opinions on this?
My observations on this are:
1) You’re cherry-picking specific opinions to find hetairim;
2) I really wish you’d respected my request not to drag me into a public discussion on this halocha.
3) I also wish, if you insist on debating this on a public forum, that “hello99” would jump in here, since he clearly knows a bit about this issue and which poskim said what. For whatever reason, you’re completely ignoring all the points, mareh mekomos, and rabonim/poskim he brings down on that thread.