Reply To: Why Do Girls Have to Cover Their Legs?

Home Forums Bais Medrash Why Do Girls Have to Cover Their Legs? Reply To: Why Do Girls Have to Cover Their Legs?

#952114
benignuman
Participant

Yitay,

You might be misunderstanding my position. I agree with you respecting Daas Yehudis. The reason there are no formal guidelines is because they are organic, rising out of the tznius practices of frum Jewish women in each generation. If someone lives in a community where sleeveless is common, then it is mutar. But if someone lives in Lakewood then it is proper to say that it is ossur.

Legs are a separate matter.

It is interesting that originally I had my doubts about the Tzlach’s mehalech in Rashi, but debating with you I am becoming more and more convinced that it is right.

There is an issur to look at the makom hatoref even if there is no intention of deriving hanah or if hanah is mutar (the issur applies even towards one’s wife). See Nedarim 20a, Sh”A O”Ch 240:4.

The Gemara in Brachos understood R’Yitzchak (because he doesn’t mention krias shema), when he said “tefach b’ishah erva,” as dealing with a general issur when looking with intent to derive pleasure because if he meant without such intent women would have to walk around with their faces and hands covered. So the Gemara asked that if there is intent to have hanah there is always an issur even without a tefach. The Gemara answers that R’Yitzchak meant regarding his wife, where intent is mutar, specifically regarding Krias Shema.

Comes along R’Chisda saying “shok b’isha erva.” Is R’Chisda arguing on R’Yitzchak? There is no indication that this is a machlokes. If there is no machlokes, what is R’Chisda adding. R’Yitzchak said that it is tali on tefach. If R”Y was speaking about all parts of the body then clearly shok would be included. If he was speaking only about m’komos mechusim, then what is the point of bringing a posuk for shok, pok chazi if it women normally cover that part of the body.

Rather Rashi understands that R’Chisda is saying that shok has a din of “erva mamesh” as derived from a posuk in Yeshaya. R’Chisda is saying that the shok of arayos, m’divrei kabbalah, is on the same plane of issur as makom hoteref. The issur is not because you might have hirhurim but a separate issur of looking at erva, just like the makom hatoref. Rashi adds that this would also mean that you cannot say krias shema in front of shok even by one’s wife, even if there is no intent of hanah, just like you could not say krias shema when the makom hatoref is exposed regardless of intention of hanah.

Note that the Gemara comes on to krias shema to explain R”Y, but does not come on to krias shema, doesn’t even ask the question, regarding R’Chisda.

Also note that according to this pshat there comes out a kulah: one can daven in front of one’s spouse uncovered arms if he doesn’t have intent to derive pleasure.