Reply To: The Dov Lipman Response�Controversial?

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#955564
Just Emes
Member

First off, the quote about moetzes that “it is possible to agree, according to the laws of the Torah, to the establishment of a Jewish state in its portion of the land of Israel without denying the belief in the coming of the redeemer” is exactly my point- that it is not kefira bemunas mashiach and not a violation of the oaths( for whatever reason -either not applicable due to Nations Permission- or- despite some poskim saying assur it is not the generally accepted halacha). The last line about the religiosity of the state has nothing to with the halachick allowance of the state regarding the shalosh shavuos. Plus regarding the Brisker Rav- while he many not have agreed in principle to their decision he clearly stated that they are the Beis din of Klal Yisrael and because they paskened its ok- it will happen( ie Hashem will make it happen) that was how great their koach Hatorah vikedusha was.

As per Rav Moshe – he said it was not a problem- end of story – and i have that directly from Hagaon Harav’ Elya Weintraub tzk’l known as one of the greatest mekubalim of our generation who asked Rav Moshe directly. Rav Moshe was the Gadol and Posek Hador and a Gadol amongst gedolim-and if Rav Elyashiv was mevatel his daas to Rav Moshe than seemingly he would agree too. Whether Rav Moshe’s reasoning was because of nations approval/shalom/defensive war etc- or- because it is not a clear cut halacha according to all poskim only some poskim)is irrelevant- he said it.

Regarding Hakaras Hatov to mitzrayim there is no difference to Israel we thank those who do any good despite their general stance- Also regarding the IDF soilders who put their life on the line to allow jews and even yeshivas to learn day and night while they patrol day and night – we all have tremendous hakaras hatov to them – Rav Chaim Shmulevitz(mir) and Rav Gershon Edelstein (ponovich) also say we must have tremendous hakaras hatov to the soilders and that they are like the ‘harugei lud’ and have a special place in the olam ha’emes. Do we want the state to be better- of course- but can we be blind to the good we have received -absolutely not- see Rav Dessler (M.E.) who says one must see the hashgacha of Hashem in EY after churban of the Jews. The argument that the jews would be ok without state that Hashem allowed- is not the case- even during the holocaust the british and american’s even sent boats of jews back to europe to the nazis. saying that since there are terror attacks and wars against israel is nothing new- and not due to oaths as per the above din of Moetzes and Rav Moshe- we had a holocaust,pogroms,libels,killings,expulsions etc long before the state was ever discussed – we would be persucuted anywhere anytime because of galus. So i grant you that there were difference among great gedolim on the issue- and eilu vi’eilu however we pasken one way and the Beis Din of Klal Yisrael and the Posek Hador said we pasken that its ok.