The Dov Lipman Response—Controversial?

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  • #609274
    ChaimShamayim
    Keymaster

    I owe so much to Ner Yisrael and want to be clear from the outset that my words are not against the yeshiva. Tremendous damage for me and the yeshiva has been caused by an audio tape in which I am quoted as saying something which I never said and anyone who knows me knows I would never say. I was quoted as saying that “all yeshiva ketanos in Israel should be closed” and then for all intents and purposes I was called a rasha and equated with Amalek and Haman. The following is what I actually have said and what my political party Yesh Atid is working for:

    1) The Israeli government should not fund institutions which don’t teach basic math and English. Yeshivos which don’t do so will not be closed down but they won’t receive government funding. It should be pointed out that there are numerous yeshivos which already take zero government money and continue to flourish. Adina Bar Shalom, Rav Ovadiah Yosef’s daughter appeared before the Knesset task force to help Haredim enter the work force which I founded and begged us to implement math and English because 50 percent of the boys in her chareidi college drop out due to their lack of math and English. I meet regularly with chareidi young men who are still completely in the chareidi world and they tell me that the one thing which is necessary is some basic math and English. I believe it is a sound decision for a government to make and look forward to seeing the yeshiva ketanos flourish and continue producing gedolei Torah while teaching basic math and English. Ironically, the basis for my supporting this plan knowing that gedolei Torah can still be produced if general studies are taught is actually Ner Yisrael which produces.

    2) Comparing me or anyone in my party to Amalek and Haman who wanted to kill all Jews including “children and women” is simply incomprehensible. We are going to help Chareidim sustain their families – literally feed their children – and we are compared to murderers??? On the spiritual level, we are proposing that 1,800 elite Torah scholars per year be recognized as serving the state and the Jewish people through their Torah study (the first time in history that a government will pay Jewish boys for their learning from a fundamental which says they are providing us with a service), the rest can study Torah uninterrupted until age 21 and then serve in military or national service geared specifically to chareidim and their lifestyle – and we are compared to Amalek and Haman?

    3) I would have never joined this party without meeting its leaders first and really understanding who they are and their intentions. The ministers and Knesset members in my party have no hate towards anyone and are not hoping that anyone becomes less religious. Yair Lapid openly declared that the religious side in Israel has shown the secular side that our basis to be in this land is G-d and our Tanach. The driving force behind our policies regarding the Chareidim is to generate unity and most importantly to get Chareidim to the work force. Money will be flowing to programs to help Chareidim get to work. My dream is to see the hi-tech corridors of Raanana, law and accounting firms in Tel Aviv, and government offices in Yerushalayim filled with Chareidim. Most young Chareidi young men are not cut out to learn Torah day and night for their entire lives and this will empower them to be Talmidei Chachamim, Bnei Torah, and also supporting their families with dignity. This will also have an immensely positive effect on Israeli society which will finally see the beautiful values and people in the Chareidi world. My e-mail in-box is filled with letters of support from Chareidim who say they finally see a future for their children – they will remain Chareidi but also not be impoverished. I must also note that our party started the first ever Beis Midrash for Knesset members in the history of the Knesset. Every Tuesday at 3:00p.m. we stop our busy schedules and sit in a committee room and learn Torah together – religious and secular MK’s. Is this a group of people who deserve to be called reshayim, Haman, and Amalek?

    I certainly hope the misquote will be acknowledged and that the comparison to Amalek and Haman will be taken back. Misunderstandings happen and can always be corrected.

    Let us all learn the lesson of the dangers of the rumor mill and misquotes and let’s work together to strengthen Torah study, the spreading of Torah values, and unity amongst the Jewish people.

    Dov Lipman

    #955304
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have a good idea. If he really thinks that he is correct, let him convince Rav Feldman.

    #955305
    ChaimShamayim
    Keymaster

    I kinda agree with Lipman. what’s the issue? – if the Yeshivas don’t want secular studies, why don’t they just fund themselves. This would just solve all the issues. Otherwise if they want funding, they need to fall under the category of a “school” and therefore follow the government’s curriculum. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    #955306
    YW Moderator-007
    Moderator

    Lipman is a rasha – the lowest of his kind.

    Open bashing session totally allowed here.

    #955307
    achosid
    Participant

    I took this from “matzeiva”.

    By T. Felik

    He claims he is going to help chareidim support their families. How righteous.

    Lipman claims that he hears positive feedback from chareidim he speaks to. His vision and his understanding of what the chareidi community feels is skewed or he simply wishes to completely ignore the truth. The fact is that Lipman represents no one but himself and those who wish to see the chareidi community crumble.

    Is it honor that drives him? Is it the glamour (?) of being a Knesset member? Is it his desire to be derided by the greater chareidi community and its leaders? Who knows.

    Lipman, do the right thing.

    #955309
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So what is the charedi solutions to we are constantly striving to address the obstacles that come our way, whether they are related to chinuch, jobs, parnassah,

    #955311
    benignuman
    Participant

    “Lipman is a rasha – the lowest of his kind.”

    Lipman has not done anything that would make him a rasha. Rabbi Feldman called him that having misunderstood what Lipman had said. This is straight up loshon hara.

    If there is a senior mod out there, please don’t let this turn into a forum for loshon hara and chilul Hashem.

    #955312
    ChaimShamayim
    Keymaster

    The article by “matzeiva” is very bubble gummy and vague.

    He has not addressed any issue and offered zero solutions.

    #955313
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Lipman has not done anything that would make him a rasha. Rabbi Feldman called him that having misunderstood what Lipman had said. This is straight up loshon hara.

    Come now, do you really think that is so?

    If that was so, Lipman would have called Rav Feldman and explained it, and Rav Feldman would have retracted it on his own accord.

    Der rasha wouldn’t be all over the internet trying to drum up support for himself.

    #955314
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the Charedi world would really be solving their problems, you wouldnt need people meddling from the outside

    #955315
    yytz
    Participant

    He was attacked publicly and responded publicly. Nothing wrong with that. We don’t know whether he called Rav Feldman or not. But even if he can’t change R’ Feldman’s mind, that doesn’t mean he’s wrong.

    #955316
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We don’t know whether he called Rav Feldman or not. But even if he can’t change R’ Feldman’s mind, that doesn’t mean he’s wrong.

    That’s fair; you can agree with him over Rav Feldman if you like (I don’t like). But don’t tell me that it was all just a misunderstanding.

    #955317
    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    As yytz said, how do you know he didn’t call Rav Feldman?

    Rav Feldman’s talk was unfortunately spread all over the internet, so he needed to clear his name. V’hoyisem nikiim . . .

    #955318
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I am not commenting on this controversy but it is absolutely outrageous that a “MOD” should EVER comment on ANY comment-let alone the kind of comment that Moderator 007writes on this. If you want to comment , do so under your own screen name and do not hide behind a “mod” number. Disgusting.

    What’s the difference? The screen names are just as anonymous.

    -95 (AKA Yanki Shnipitchuky)

    #955319
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ben: I think it is reasonable to assume that if he had convinced Rav Feldman that he was misinterpreted, and Rav Feldman regretted what he had said, then we’d see him take it back.

    Do you agree?

    #955320
    truthsharer
    Member

    I disagree. When was the last time something was ever taken back?

    #955322
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    One thing is abundantly clear. Many were saying the Lipman must be a great guy, and the frum oilam should heed him because he is one of theirs. He is a musmach of Ner Yisroel. His hashkafos must be soundly based.

    The Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel has clarified that in no uncertain terms.

    The yeshiva has denounced any claim that Lipman has relating to being representative of Ner Yisroel.

    He has been defined as a Shono Uparish. His views are decidedly not those that he learned in Ner Yisroel. They are of his own invention and fantasy with no basis in fact or logical presumption.

    And just as it is now cleear that he is not from the Frum oilam, his suggestions are not for the benefit of the frum oilam.

    Its like the fox giving eitzos for the hen.

    VDAL

    #955323
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Truthsharer,

    “Lipman is arguably more inline witH NIRC than R Feldman.”

    Let me see, should I belive truthsharer who has chosen an ironic name or the RY of Ner Yisroel about what is inline with Ner Yisroel?

    Well, if I were a fool, I know what I would do, however, I don’t consider myself a fool. So I will go with the RY of Ner Yisroel. Not too difficult.

    And R Feldman did not “misqoute” Lipman. He paraphrased very accurately what lipman has said and as evidenced by whom Lipman has aligned himself with.

    Have you read Lipman’s unbelievablly silly article in the Jewish Press about what he suggest for curiculum in Yeshivos? (Ironically based on a story that happened in a non chareidi school and one that could not have happened in a chareidi Yeshiva)

    #955324
    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    Yes. But it is too soon to infer from Rav Feldman’s silence that he hasn’t. I don’t know the context under which Rav Feldman was speaking (I think it was a shiur), but he might wait until the next such context (i.e. the next such shiur) to clarify.

    I don’t expect Rav Feldman to retract from his general statements, only from the statement calling Lipman a rasha.

    #955326
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well look at that. You were correct. And he did apologize.

    #955328
    akuperma
    Participant

    1. So why did he propose closing down the non-zionist yeshivos (that is the effect of confiscating the money they raise abroad, as well as throwing the talmidim in prison) – and its pretty clear that is what is being planned (according to the secular press).

    2. If he’s concerned about frum parnassah, why not propose making it legal for people to get jobs outside the hareidi community without serving in the army – at present they will be arrested if they do so.

    3. If he’s so concerned, why not propose an American style anti-discrimination law requiring what in the USA is “reasonable accomodation” of religious minorities (and is Israel is considered “religious coercion”).

    There is no hazakah that he is a evil person (yet), so we need to be Dan le-Kay Zechus. He may have been misled. Some people joined the Nazi Party in 1933 not realizing it would engage in genocide. He can now resign, or better, join the opposition, and come home to Torah world he only recently left.

    #955329
    Sam2
    Participant

    Popa: In general, castigations get spread a lot more quickly and easily then retractions, especially on the internet. Even among the more Yeshivish, the internet loves rabble-rousing. Quieting the inflamed rabble isn’t fun. So any retraction by definition wouldn’t get nearly as much publicity as an attack. And, as such, assuming that we would hear of any retraction is a bad assumption.

    #955331
    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    Boruch Hashem. Dan l’kaf zechus. It works 🙂

    #955332
    Brony
    Participant

    lol @ the matzeiva article. charedim would do themselves a huge service by not attempting to put their “thoughts” down on paper.

    #955333

    Whether Rabbi Feldman apologized or not, or whether Lipman really believes that Yeshivas should close down, is a series of irrelevant conversations. At bottom, the Charedim are not going to agreeably contribute to general Israeli society on any level, and everyone to the left of them is going to be annoyed. Exactly how annoyed and exactly what terms they use to express their annoyance as well as what language the Charedim use to respond would have been a wonderful topic for batlanim to discuss, if there any batlanim anywhere, which of course there aren’t. But it won’t affect anyone’s actual opinions on anything meaningful.

    #955334
    HaKatan
    Participant

    I concur with akuperma’s points above, except that Lipman pointed out that his goal was that they be funded independently AS SOME SCHOOLS ALREADY ARE, not that they be closed down.

    Regardless, were it not for the Zionist factor and other factors, as Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum described in his piece titled, “Where the American and Israeli Torah Communities Differ”, my guess is that Rav Feldman’s reaction would have been different.

    So it seems that there are some minor issues with Rabbi Lipman’s position; whereas with arguably greater issues, like Zionism, for example, I don’t see everyone rushing to similarly condemn Rabbi Kook and his followers the same way, despite similar denigrations being heaped on them and/or their “shitos” by one or more gedolim and the reality proving those “shitos” to be wrong.

    #955335
    yytz
    Participant

    Akuperma:

    1. He said he didn’t propose that, and R’ Feldman has apologized.

    2. They are in fact doing exactly that. According to R’ Alderstein’s summary of the legislation, “immediately, anyone over the age of 22 is free to enter the workforce, even if he did not do any army service.”

    3. They are trying very hard to make army service and alternative national service accomodating to charedim. It’s not perfect yet, but they’re definitely working on it. I sometimes read the blog of one charedi man (Akiva of mpaths) two of whose children have joined the IDF; one had a great experience and the other one has had not had very good religious accomodation. Like I said, it’s not perfect.

    He’s still part of the Torah world. He’s just part of the moderates now — the new charedim, as they are called. He is sincere in wanting to make changes that will bring society together and improve the public’s image of charedim. Many charedim agree with him behind the scenes but are afraid to speak out out of fear of being denounced by hardliners.

    R’ YG Bechhofer (who teaches at Ohr Sameach and elsewhere) has an interesting perspective on all of this, though I forget whether it’s on his blog or somewhere else.

    #955336
    Dr Uri Bakay
    Member

    Hashem should bless Dov with arichus yamim and hatzlacha He is a true Tzadik , the Rambam would love him

    #955338
    yytz
    Participant

    Akuperma: “confiscating the money they raise abroad, as well as throwing the talmidim in prison.”

    What are you talking about? Where did you hear this?

    #955340
    Wolfman
    Participant

    Hakatan-

    I am not a Zionist nor am I an expert in the shitos of Rav Kook ZTL, but I’d be very cautious about paskening that a godol of Rav Kook’ stature is wrong. Let’s not forget that this is, after all only a blog, and us anonymous people should refrain from attacking gedolim.

    #955341

    Akuperma: “confiscating the money they raise abroad, as well as throwing the talmidim in prison.”

    What are you talking about? Where did you hear this?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/167583/Share-the-Burden-Committee-Likely-to-Favor-Personal-Sanctions-Against-Talmidim.html

    #955342
    Avi K
    Participant

    I would also mandate Science and Citizenship. A modern country simply cannot afford such a large number of people who are in a permanent state of dependency. On ther hand, I would also mandate that secular schools teach Gemara and Jewish Thought. What sanctions should be applied to those who refuse is another question. Perhaps it would be sufficient to deny welfare benefits to those who did not meet the minimum requirements as they caused their situation willfully.,

    #955343
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I am not sure how this fits in with:

    YWN Coffee Room Posting Rules

    Loshon Hara and other inappropriate speech

    2 – Loshon Hara will not be tolerated at all. We are not and will not become Lashon Hara central (keep this in mind when starting a thread).

    Is Dov Lipman not part of ?????? This thread should be closed as it is totally against Halocho. Just because you don’t agree with somebodies outlook and hashkofos doesn’t mean you can have an

    Open bashing session totally allowed here.

    #955344
    HaKatan
    Participant

    WolfMan, point taken. Thank you.

    When Rabbi Kook made that comment about the soccer players being greater than neviim, the gedolim of the time, including the Chofetz Chaim, knew and made clear that he was wrong. This was the consensus of the Torah greats of the day and I intended merely to repeat that, not to add my own condemnation.

    What I meant by “reality proving those shitos to be wrong” was that, long after Rabbi Koook espoused his views, it’s clear that Zionism has been a disaster, both from a spiritual perspective (yaldei Tehran, ongoing shmad, et al ad nauseum) and from a physical (lack of security and loss of lives, CH”V) perspective.

    #955345
    akuperma
    Participant

    to those who asked” Akuperma: “confiscating the money they raise abroad, as well as throwing the talmidim in prison.”

    What are you talking about? Where did you hear this?

    YNET and Israel Times sites.

    They have decided that cutting off funding for yeshivos won’t work, since many yeshivos (the noisiest one in protest the government) never accepted government money, and that many yeshivos rely on foreign fundraising. Therefore the idea of merely cutting off government money won’t be effective in punishing yeshivos that oppose conscription. That requires fines that have to be paid from money raised from private donors, which means from America.

    They also realized that fines against penniless yeshiva students (and face, even the most middle class 18 year is penniless unless he inherited a trust fund, which is very rare even in America and unheard of in Israel) are uncollectible, and therefore they will need to throw them in prison for refusing to serve in the army.

    Look it, I know you guys really believe that the medinah was the beginning of the geula. But it times to admit that the zionists are the ones we daven for in Shmonei Esray every weekday with the bracha that includes “v’kal oyvei amecha meharah yekarasu”. Ha-Shem will protect the Am ha-Torah. It might still be, just not in the way you think.

    #955346
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Hakatan: please check with argentinian jews, russian jews, french jews,turkish jews (what’s left of them) whether the medinah has “been a disaster” as you maintain…Or maybe you should aks the tens of thousands of avreichim in israel who have lived their whole lives supported by the medinah,whether it is ‘a disaster” the disaster is amongst the dwindling few who still cling to an obviously wrong shittah…..

    #955347
    levlalev
    Member

    I support Dov Lippmann in his quest and desire to find the tzvil hazahav in Eretz yisroel. I have actually told him that and encouraged him to hang in. I am afraid that the results of this vikuach will be that Lippmann will disappear. I believe that within three months he will resign. I hope I am wrong but charedi politics are emotional and unbending. When i became Orthodox almost 50 years ago, I thought naively that it was spiritual and not political , but i don’t think that is the case especially in Israel. we play the zero sum game.. my gain is your loss. so in this case Lippmann loss will be Cheridas gain!

    #955348
    yytz
    Participant

    HaKatan, have you considered the following, regarding your “physical” perspective? About 25,000 have died as a result of wars and terrorist attacks in Israel (that counts deaths that occurred in the decades before the establishment of the Medinah as well).

    But in Israel, the vast majority of Jews (probably at least 90%) marry other Jews and have halachically Jewish children. In America, the number is much lower, about 50%. This means that millions of Jews who would have existed in the US, if people had only married Jews, do not exist. This has been referred to as a “silent holocaust.”

    If the millions of Jews in Israel had been living in the US or elsewhere, the overall intermarriage rate would have probably been similar. So the existence of Israel has been responsible for the birth of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews who wouldn’t have existed otherwise. This more than makes up for the 25,000 who have died.

    You really think the “shmad” and the prominence of secular Jews and ideology in the Medinah is so bad that it outweighs the existence of all those hundreds of thousands of Jewish neshamos that wouldn’t have existed without the Medina? Anyway, it’s not as if there’s not secular ideology here in golus. It’s not as if the US government financially supports charedi yeshivas and lifelong kollel learners.

    #955349
    levlalev
    Member

    The lippman saga is important because it points out the tug of war between various segments of our community> i think that Eliyahu Finks blog Fink or swim) offers a good depiction of the difference between Cherida Judaism in eretz Yisroel and fervent orthodox in America. My question is can we in the US have any influence on the positions in Eretz Yisroel. Frankly , I doubt it, Lippman’s noble and selfless attempt will most likely fail.

    #955350
    Sam2
    Participant

    Fink’s blog is interesting in its uniqueness. It’s not anti-Chareidi (not really, at least) or against any type of Frumkeit other than his own. It just seems that way sometimes because of how stupid it is.

    #955351
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    The likes of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Chafetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others called Zionism the Avoda Zara/apikorsus that it is. Rav Elchonon HY”D also called “”Religious” Zionism” religion and avoda zara bishutfus.

    There are no other valid shitos in this regard; Zionism is diametrically opposed to, lihavdil, the Torah. You choose to fool yourself and align yourself with outdated notions of European Nationalism and graft the same on to, lihavdil, our holy Torah, when, in addition to the great Rabbis who opposed Zionism, history has shown what a churban Zionists have perpetrated on our people.

    #955352
    HaKatan
    Participant

    yytz:

    In Israel, there are plenty of Jewish girls “marrying” Arabs, where these poor girls then go through hell and have to be saved, not to mention the many Russian and other halachic non-Jews. So I’m not so sure it’s 90%.

    Regardless, who is to say that these Israelis would not have married Jews? After all, it was the Zionists who shmaded them and they were, for the most part, originally religious before coming to Israel. So they probably would have married Jews regardless. American kiruv is explosive and far-reaching and, BE”H, those intermarriage numbers will decrease.

    However, your assertion that any of this would “make up” for the 25,000 who died or were savagely murdered is not one that I agree with at all. Al pi derech HaTevah, every one of those Jews would still be alive and their families would not be grieving over their untimely deaths, R”L L”A. This is a direct result of Zionism and their is no justifying any of those deaths, CH”V.

    Strangely, religious Zionists, from some of their top halachic decisors on down, believe that (“lichaora”) the Torah condones these human sacrifices to their eigel of a State.

    You’re claiming these Jewish neshamos wouldn’t have existed without the medinah; I disagree, and, at best, you’re speculating. Hashem could have arranged a different way for these neshamos to come to this world, if He had wanted to do so. But to condone shmad for any reason, including speculating that there are more Jews as a result, is not acceptable, in my humble opinion.

    Look at all the Jews who are and were in Israel who are lost to their heritage because the Zionists shmaded them and continue to do so. None of this would have happened without Zionism.

    Lastly, Secular Ideology and Shmad are separate entities. The United States cannot establish a national religion and its society is somewhat secular. That’s partly why we have our own schools, etc. But that pales in comparison to shmad, where a “Jewish” government and State exist only to change Jews into Zionists. This is unique to Israel, and B”H, not at all the case outside Israel. Rav Moshe famously called the United States a Medina Shel Chesed; we are free to practice our faith and even respected for doing so, unlike in Israel.

    #955353
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    YW Moderator 007 – are you going to appologize for calling MK Lipmann a Rasha, now that the RY of Ner Yisrael who initially called him such has appologized?

    As to why you should not post opinions as a moderator – as an individual, your posting is clearly only representing yourself. As a moderator, you represent the site as a whole. Are you saying that YWN’s policy is that MK Lipmann is a Rasha?

    an Israeli Yid

    #955354
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    It’s interesting how the current mess about a Rosh Yeshiva calling MK Lipmann a Rasha could have been avoided by simply listening to a Chazal – “Chachamim – Hizaharu b’divreichem!”

    Note that Chazal were specifically addressing those they called Chachamim in their statement – an acknowledgement that even those who are truly Chachamim can sometimes speak unthinkingly.

    an Israeli Yid

    #955355

    It’s all about politics. Rav Feldman was probably heavily pressured to criticize lipman by people within ner yisroel. That being said, Lipman has some very good points. Advocating absorbing chareidim into great jobs Is wonderful, reduce unemployment, and reduce dependence on the government. What’s the big fight, the Gemara and rambam clearly say Torah without derech eretz will fail

    #955356
    kasher
    Participant

    To paraphrase an odom godol- difference between zionism and reform:

    While reform attempted to take Tzion out of the Siddur, the zionists attempted to take the Siddur out of Tzion.

    To ALL the politicians- careful who you associate with

    #955357
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This is unique to Israel, and B”H, not at all the case outside Israel.

    Just anothe reason to separate church & state in Israel. When are the Charaidim finally going to suggest it?

    #955358
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan, the anti-religious sentiment has nothing to do with Zionism. The Government nowdays is not trying to shmad anybody. Stop with the false accusations!

    The Mizrachim are relying on a Ramban.

    Try going and living in Poland, Russia, Ukraine. Try to walk the street with a yarmulke on there. You’ll understand a lot about the roots of Zionism.

    #955359
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: Interesting. I know many people who would call it Kefirah to say that life and death exists at all Al Pi Derech Hateva and that it’s not all B’yad Hashem. (I think that B’pashtus it’s a Machlokes Rishonim.)

    Oh, and pretty strong correlations can be drawn to the success of the Kiruv movement (in both America and Israel) to the Nissim G’luyim that we saw in the 6-day war.

    #955360
    HaKatan
    Participant

    mdd, as the Brisker Rov, if I am not mistaken, wrote, the Zionists don’t shmad in order to have a State; they need a State because they want to shmad. Shmad is the essence of Zionism.

    Anti-religious sentiment has nothing to do with it; their goal, in which they have unfortunately been somewhat successful, is to CH”V replace Judaism with Zionism.

    Sam2, a person’s choices do affect his life. If one chooses to play in traffic, it’s not logical to claim that Hashem had already pre-ordained that time as his exit time from this Earth. But being blown up in a cafeteria by a savage suicide bomber or the savage who invaded the Fogel family’s HY”D house makes those deaths much worse even if you claim that this was the pre-ordained time.

    The 6-day war, contrary to Zionist propaganda, was not “nissim geluyim”. Google “CIA 6 day war”; it was a “sure thing”.

    Regardless, the shmad and horrific deaths, CH”V, in Israel, were all totally unnecessary and only due to Zionism.

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